Why do we have a Shout Box?
The Shout Box seems to be a point of controversy and a breeding ground for animosity or confusion. The problem has always been the management styling. The inconsistencies. The fact that one day something is ok to do or say, and other days, it isn't. I saw recently in the Shout Box yet another example of these inconsistencies with a lengthy discussion between several of the LDW team and another member.

The Shout Box seems to be the biggest thorn in LDW’s side. Though the concept was nice, the practicality of it seems unobtainable. This seems to be where many issue arise between the LDW team and the forum members and even between mods, well, specifically myself when I was a moderator, (I can't speak for the others), and management. I guess LDW really should ask themselves, “is it really worth it?”. My moderating style, when it came to the Shout Box, seemed different than what the Admins would have preferred, as a result I was constantly getting written reprimands. Yes, there is always the decision making process of "is this a violation?", and what action needs to be taken, if any and that decision is dependant on the moderators perception of what is in the Shout Box and their interpretation of the forum rules, and in some cases, their personal feelings towards one member versus another.

Is it really worth it, the hassle, the miscommunication, the “politicking” this causes? I have said it before and I will say it again, why even have the Shout Box at all? What is the purpose of the Shout Box? The answer to that question has been said that it is there for people to get help and get answers.

When I see questions posed by members, there are no real answers given. I see things like "Did you look in the forum?" or "that answer is in the such-and-such forum.", but is that a real answer? We aren't supposed to put spoilers in the Shout Box. OK, I get that. So we can't give a specific answer to a question in the Shout Box. It has to be PM'd.

When I answered questions in the Shout Box, I would give a link or two that dealt with the question at hand. "You can find the answer here: http://blah-blah-blah. THAT is answering a person's question. Not "Did you look in the VF forum?". At the time I am writing this, the VF forum has 1,805 threads and over 19 and a half THOUSAND responses. People like me, who have been here a while, would have a better chance of locating an answer to the question and giving a direct answer. That would be more representative of the “family” atmosphere that is always preached. Telling a new member to go look in a particular forum for their answer is like telling them to go look for the needle in a haystack.

Now, I can hear the rebuttal being, "we don't have the time to research every request that comes through". To that I say... "Why even have the Shout Box?". Many times I have come on and someone has asked a question and it went unanswered. Most likely because someone wasn't online to answer it before they left. Even at that, no spoilers are allowed. Again, nobody takes the time to run a query and point someone to the specific answer to the question that they asked. The person who asked the question feels let down because there was no response given. “How rude” or thanks for the help” is most likely what somebody thinks at this point. The Shout Box raises expectations of the newer members only to let them down in most cases. If there was no Shout Box, people would be more likely to research the forum and use the tools of the forum, such the search feature because they wouldn’t be led to believe there is a shortcut to getting an answer.

It has also been said that the Shout Box is a place to cozy up and get to know each other. It seems even that has its limitations. Limited to "How's the weather?" and "Are you playing VV (VF, PT, FT). Other than that, things get deleted or stern warnings are given. No antics, no role playing, no consecutive posting, no frivolous posts. Why even have the Shout Box in the first place? It seems to me that there is no real purpose for it except to be a mechanism for hypocrisy, headache, false hope, and eventually, disappointment. I cannot think of any forum that I have been to where a Shout Box has been incorporated. They are strictly threads and posts. I think we would all, as a whole, benefit from the industry standard, leaving more time for the LDW team to do what they need to do and not worry about policing the Shout Box.

Since my departure as moderator in early August, the activity of the Shout Box has dwindled considerably. Most days when I pass through, the post at the top of the list that is viewable is at least 4 days old. Most of the time it is just people popping in and shouting “hi J “, followed by “Anyone here?”, followed by their sad faced departure. Again, what’s the point of having a Shout Box but to offer hope and deliver disappointment?

It just seems to me that the Admins of this forum are spinning their wheels and wasting their time and energy in trying to make a concept work when in reality, there really is no answer that will meet the needs of the demographics here in this forum. Since the Shout Box is guarded with a heavy, and sometimes fickle hand, and punishments are handed out, like being temporarily banned from the forums, or in other cases, as most of us have termed “being Red Gloved” (reference to Virtual Families), I say just kill the Shout Box. I liked the idea of the Shout Box. I liked it when I first came here almost 4 years ago, but it has become such an issue with me, that this was one of a few reasons I resigned my commission as Forum Moderator and started my own chat website where the chatting rules are looser and Red Gloving is not the first course of action. I don’t have a company image to uphold so I can do it. I essentially have 2 rules. No cursing and be respectful to others. That’s it.

The demise of the Shout Box may upset some people. Why? I don’t know, and others would cheer, but we’d all get used to it and the new members would not know any difference, so it wouldn’t bother them. This is just my opinion on this matter. Thanks for “listening”.

While I don't care if there is an sb anymore or not, I would like to add my two cents here.

I use to LOVE logging on to LDW, and play LDW games because of the sb. It was a good place to meet new people. I looked forward to new game releases, and I have gifted 3 relatives with a total of 12 games as well. I have made a few close friends through the sb, friends I hope to have for a lifetime.

Having said that...

Now LDW is not a happy place for me. When I try to post in the SB, I more often than not, find MY shouts are deleted. I get reprimanded for things others are allowed to do/say, and often the same happens to my friends. Everytime I have questioned it, I get a run around about how I violated the rules, yet the moderator/admin explaining the violation can never REALLY answer my question. I do not believe they understand the rules any better than I do. (perhaps not even as well, since what is conceived as a violation for me, is overlooked when others post the same, or worse)

Not only is the 'red glove' inconsistant, it is prejudicial. I know this will be disputed, but any long time SB user has to admit that it is obvious.

The result of the treatment I have been given, and I am talking about being called a liar by a moderator when stating fact about my VF game, having a mod tell me and 2 others via pm that we should NOT USE the sb or it will be removed (altho she later said that she didn't say that... I wish I had kept that pm) My shouts get deleted and it is an 'oversight' that even more useless shouts are allowed. We cannot tell others that we have sent them a pm so their attention is brought to the fact (against the rules)yet a game in the forum can be announced to the point of dominating the SB. I was told announcing a pm is against the rules because it doesn't effect everyone. Niether does a game. I was also told that the person the pm is for can check for new messages. The same can be said for a forum game. Check the forum. Fair is not a word that can be in any way associated with the SB.

I think it is imperitive that instead of the continual promise of improvement being handed out whenever there is a dispute over rules and fairness, that a real change be made.

I do not speak for anyone but myself when I say, I will not be spending my money on any more LDW games until something changes to correct the way some of us are treated. Being called a liar in the SB by a moderator (who by the way, is quick to reprimand in the sb, but will only discuss in private) has resulted in the retirement of my games. What fun is it to play if you get called a liar when you discuss them?

My first suggestion is that if there is reason to delete a post, or reprimand a user , pm the user and explain. Public humiliation is not going to do anything but hurt people who have actually spent money to buy the games this forum is based on. YES... WE are the customers and the people who pay the salarys of the LDW employees! I HATE it when I see these kids cower and apologize for some silly thing they got 'red gloved' for, when often it is something others have done and it was ok.

Respectfully Hoping for Change,
Spinny

Okay I'm going to put my 2 cents in as well.

I have views pretty much like the others who have discussed this subject all ready in the SB. I too have made at least 5 long life time friends here (I hope) And 3 of which I consider to be my best friends.

I have been here for three years now (first year was a lurker without a membership). I was thrilled at the forums, I saw fun in the SB, friendly people. So a year later I joined. and made great friends. And then at the beginning of this year....things started going down. And now finally it's to the point where I can't even say "Hello" in the SB without it getting deleted! How is someone supposed to know I'm there?

I feel like certain people are picked out of the members to be red gloved for just saying Hi to someone or LOLing at someone's shout. Why can others do it but we can't? It makes no sense.

I feel like anymore...what's the sense in even trying to make any new friends here? How CAN you make new friends we all you can basically say is:

"Hello? How's your peeps? How's the weather? Anything new on the previews page? Oh well bye now!"

How are you suppposed to get to know each other? I am in no means saying hand out your first name and address! I'm saying like What's your fav thing to do? What's your fav type of music? That is not identifying stuff.

Which speaking of, I and one of my closest friends received a PM stating (it was from an admin) that she had a lot of personal info on us and that we need to be careful. I tell MM everything I say in the SB (she is usually HERE in the ROOM when I'm chatting) and even she doesn't understand that. And I'd like to know why was the person even storing that? That scares me.

Also I have to agree with the way reprimands are handed out. Publicly calling a user a liar or stating that they did wrong and should stop isn't the right way to do it. It's embarrassing. I believe it should be handled by PMs.

On the subject of the rules....I don't even understand them. I mean understanding them by the literal terms by which they are written? Yeah of course I get it and thought I've followed them for the most part (we all make mistakes not saying I haven't broken one or two from time to time). But getting some of the things I've seen out of the rules...it's almost as though there's an invisible handbook that the admins/mods hold that we don't. So how are we supposed to know I ask?

I could go on and on about this but I think I've covered the most important points to me. And this is just my opinion. I'll leave the forum to decide their opinion on this.

Sincerly,

Havetia Silva

Hi,

I do realize that maybe everyone does not get to see or should I say hear from me much. But I am here everyday in the background, because my daughter loves the forum or should I say used to love this forum. She does not love it as much now. I do realize that you say you are just looking out for our children which is great, that is the reason I let her join. She and I have been on the forum for three years (again like her the first year was as lurkers) and it used to be a fun and loving forum. I used to spend hours literally LOLing at the antics that was going on in Shout Box. Now all I seem to see is fighting and this has been since there has been changes in the moderators/admins. Your need to take a good look at what it used to be like, how many people were on and what it is now. I do not think you should get rid of the Shout Box, but put it back the way it used to be (fun and loving). Do not mess with something that was not broke in the first place.

Sincerely,
Maniac Mom

PS: Let the kids have their clean, loving family back. Even us adults are kids too.

I spent loads of time here as a lurker without a membership and although I can't remember much I know it was a nicer place in the SB. I am one of those sad faced departure people. Just look in the shoutbox. I have posted twice today "Hi" and "Hello?", but I'm just ignored. The SB is no use anymore exept to allow the moderators to let people know about something easy to find themselves. I myself don't care about the forum game "Who am I?" I either want to chat or watch. I saw some of an argument between spinnything and LadyCFII about how spinnything's LOL got removed. I only made 1 true friend and shes been gone a while. I've spent most of my time her in the last month just as a lurker with a membership and have seen a few things. Not very much though.

I hope it changes and I will go on it more, but either that or...
What's the point of having it if you're limited that much? Either change it or get rid of it.

Rant over,
PT99

Yes, PT99, there was a time when your 'Hi' would have been met with enthusiasm and a conversation could have taken place, friendships formed. I have seen your shouts today. I also see an 'LOL' sitting there which I for some reason am not allowed to say. *shrugs* I don't post there anymore, so HI!

"post removed"

Gamey, old friend, I have been to other forums that also have a shout box (they were all Millsville related) and trust me "It's just as much of a headache for them as it is for us."

The biggest difference I see between this site, and the Millsville site that our friend Houjun moderates, is that there is nearly always a moderator or admin online in there.

Of course they have like 6 admins and idk how many mods, but issues do get handled more rapidly that way. There's also the fact that trouble makers are simply not tolerated. You get warned (suspended) once, then your gone for good.

Having said that, let me point out a few things you already know, but most members don't:

In that site the SB is the primary means members communicate. The forums are used for more lengthy things, most of which are not time sensitive.

In this site, the SB is an addendum. It was never intended to be a primary means of communication. It is NOT an IM replacement.

That site is hosted on an ad based server. They aren't concerned with things like "bandwidth overages" because the more people who view the ads, the better. You can pay an annual fee to make it ad free, or deal with the popups. Your choice.

Thank goodness, LDW chose not to go that route. Here, LDW bears the full cost of running the site. They pay the annual fee for us. If the SB get's particularly active and they go over the bandwidth, they get hit with a "penalty." They pay this and go on, never "reprimanding" us for being enthusiastic members.

Also, keep this in mind. When You and I joined, there were way less than a hundred thousand members. Now, there are over ONE HUNDRED SIXTY THOUSAND, and the numbers grow daily! Please forgive my mistake...When Gamey and I joined there were around TEN thousand members. THAT number has grown to over TWENTY FIVE thousand.

When you and I joined, the membership base was primarily young to middle aged adults (I suspect many of which are parents).

Since the release of Virtual Families (or maybe it was VV3) that has changed to mostly what I call "tweenagers." The majority of members now are between 8 and 20 years old.
Sorry kids, but facts is facts, and the fact is "It's a lot easier to ride herd on a crowd of adults, than a crowd of young people."

Finally, I'm going to tell you that, despite the perception, "we" do not intentionally pick on any member in or out of the SB. IF a member breaks the rules, we try to gently remind them.

If misconduct continues an admin will contact that user via PM and give them a warning. If the message still doesn't get through, other actions up to and including permanent bans are imposed. Again "We" don't like having to make people behave, but somebody has to, or there would be chaos in here.

Finally, to answer your question "Why have a Shout Box?"
The SB is (and always was) intended to be a "Meet & Greet" place.

It [b]is a place where members can exchange niceties and chat (briefly please) about their games, and every day life.

The SB is NOT a place to carry on lengthy conversations, if at all avoidable. Please use PM's for communicating with particular members, or the Forums to communicate with the entire membership. If the subject is not LDW related, we have an Off Topics forum you can use.

Whether in the SB or the Forums, we do require our members to be courteous, stay "on subject" (yes even in the OT), and follow our general rules.

The SB can and should be a fun place to say "hello" and get updates from each other. The {"overzealous?") enforcement that started this whole conversation was created because members couldn't/wouldn't follow the rules!

The "Inconsistent Enforcement" is because: 1) WE ARE HUMAN, and 2) WE ARE NOT ALWAYS ONLINE!

Believe me! It is as frustrating to us as it is to YOU the members! The Forum rules are written in very simple terms.

The Shout Box rules (you know that square just above the SB?) is even more simple! If people would just follow them, EVERYONE (including the mods & admins) would be MUCH happier.

As it says in the Shout Box Rules: "Pull up a chair and your favorite beverage and talk about life and LDW games. It should be a place where newbies are welcomed into the family and everyone feels comfortable joining in the conversation."

First, in response to rocky's shout, people dont come on because they know they can't communicate. I say this because if the sb is for people to become friends, you can only do that with lengthy conversations. It also makes people happier.

Private messages, or pms are stated as "private". It's not common to have "private" conversasions with someone that you dont know.

Maybe if there was an off topic thread where we could have conversasions without having to follow the sb rules as much, it would help solve this.

Just a question, no one has to answer, I'd just like them to think about it. Why was I able to have conversasions about snow, or how people were, or other things that are now deleted on site, a few months ago?

One last thing, I am glad I got the warnings before getting banned, however, I wasn't aware of what "roleplay" meant. Whether I should have known, I dont know, but most of the younger kids that are picking up on these games probably dont know what it means, which can cause confusion.

An uphappy member,
Luke

p.s. I am glad that ldw is willing to spend money for the forum, but its becoming a waste. This forum used to be a happy place with many posts a day, now its just "Who am I", with very few people actually participating.

Dear Rocky,

Now from what I just read, it sounds as if because all of us who love to have fun and get to know new people and have a blast with our friends, that made the forums so popular place. Which took up bandwidth. So now because of this we are being punished, by telling us that we can't do this or can't do that, because it costs too much. Why didn't you just ask if we wouldn't mind paying a little to help with the costs of keeping this place a fun ACTIVE place?

~ManiacMom