There is no need to dramatize the situation any further Luke. I agree with both sides as well.

And thanks Rockmower for your opinion, though I think I misinterpreted as well. But(and I could be wrong), many other people are having the same problem as well, no?

I think if a clear answer was given, other than "you broke a rule", this discussion would end faster.

im not overreacting, well maybe I am, but I dont need the forums, I never use them, because, I have no use, no ones shouting, no ones posting, its become a ghost town, or town with people to terrified to come out of thier "homes" in fear of someone punishing them for something innocent. Perhaps you can help yourself by coming up with a plan to make sure prejudice doesn't happen, and actually enforce it. I understand that the sb and forums are a courtesy by ldw, but they're not being used. The benefits of being a member aren't really fun any more. So im going to try to be nice and remove myself before I lose control. The way I see (yes I know that our minds are biased to) some adults treat teenagers, even thought they may have recently been one, simply because we're different. Im going to try to reduce stress all around. The forums dont equal positive to me anymore, so I have no need for them. So good bye all. I'd still like my two completed stories kept. At least as long I guess as they still follow the rules.
I will play the games because they equal positive. And I have seen the mods and admins not delete each other stuff, even when it breaks the rules.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But I hope you return one day. Yes this place seems to be a bit dead, with the exception of WHO AM I. That is the only reason I get on more often besides awaiting the release of vv5.

Let's see if I can try to salvage this situation, since I can see it's teetering on the edge. I happened to reply immediately after 30flame's latest post, but it is not a reply to anyone in particular. This just happens to be where it landed in the thread.

Warning! This is going to be long.

First off, I'd like to speak for myself (and no one else). I am a person, a human being with feelings, just like everyone else here. I like to be treated fairly, just like everyone else here. When I'm falsely accused of something like arguing with someone in the SB, it hurts me just as much as when any of you feel mistreated. I did not argue with anyone in the SB, and in fact, I defended spinnything and extended an apology for what took place prior to my entering the SB and seeing what was happening. I think it's important to set the record straight there.

Second, I'd like to say that we (LDW) are not ogres, the enemy, or anything of the sort. We're also not a large, faceless company that has the resources to provide myriad interesting things for their communities to have fun with. LDW is Arthur and Carla. They are the people who work their tails off to make games, provide the forums, juggle all of the logistics involved with keeping things going while trying to have some semblance of family life with their infant son. It's their money that has to pay the people (contractors) who help make the games a reality, pay for these forums and all of the other servers that provide the public face of LDW, just to name a few things. If anyone thinks that keeping a game company going is easy, I can tell you that it's not. We work harder, and longer hours, than most of you would imagine. We are affected by this down economy, too. As Arthur has said publicly, pricing pressures in the casual game arena have had a significant impact on the 'value' of new game releases. We're having to do more with less, and that doesn't give us the luxury to do everything we'd like to do, exactly as we'd like.

Maybe if I shared with all of you a little history, it will help you understand how we got here. Those of you who honestly want to reach a place of understanding might appreciate knowing, and might even have a little compassion for our situation. I hope so. I shared this with Gamey and the other moderators a couple of months ago, but I think it might help everyone in the community. Here we go:

For the first couple of years of the forums' existence, there was nothing here but discussion about our games - Palm, then Pocket PC, and finally Windows and Mac desktop games. No Shout Box, no Off-Topic discussions - only specific game forums (and not very many of those). The Guides section came about a couple of months after Fish Tycoon Windows was released.

Once the Shout Box arrived with the first forum software upgrade in late 2006, before many of you arrived here, the entire character of the forums changed, and so did the workload associated with managing them. Over the course of the next 12 months, we considered lots of different ways to make the forums fun and appealing, and we implemented some of them. As you all know, we made mistakes along the way, sometimes having to put restrictions on, or even reverse, earlier decisions. The Forum Games and signature images are just two examples of that kind of thing.

We revisited our forum strategy in early 2008, looking to get some help with the 'fun and appealing' aspects of the LDW forums. Carla wanted, and I quote, "to see if there is a way to improve the situation in the forums and maybe add some fun to them. We all know how busy we all are and we would need a volunteer to help us with the contest, polls, tournaments stuff to keep the community busy, entertained and focused."

I recommended Gamey and Eyeshigh, and Arthur and Carla took it from there.

I think it would have worked, if the 'focused' part of that strategy had not failed. We wanted forum activity focused around LDW games - polls, contests, and LDW-themed forums games, such as those cool games in the Official Forum Games section. Instead, the Shout Box became the center of activity here, which put a tremendous load on moderators and admins. We simply cannot operate a chat room, IM service, or social media network with the scarce resources we have.

You also should understand that we sometimes bite off more than we can handle, given the extremely limited resources (people and money) available to LDW. Arthur, Carla and I are always overextended, and things are always falling through the cracks. It was entirely LDW's fault that the 'focus' part failed, since we simply didn't have the time, resources, or money to fuel the fun in a way that fit our stated strategy. It started well, but we simply couldn't continue to devote the necessary resources and energy to keeping it going. The contests dwindled and died out, and everyone became very frustrated. We do understand the impact of that. We never intended to 'give and take away.' I hope you can all believe that. We were simply consumed with the amount of work - we still are. This is a direct quote from one of our internal emails last year, that might help you understand that we do understand:

The economic downturn started growing worse about that time, too, putting additional pressure on everything.

I'd like all of you to think for a second about this scenario…
Picture your family, however big or small it is, and try to envision your family running all the stuff that you see this handful of people doing. Some of you might be interested in seeing another SB saga here that really illustrates the kind of thing that has made the moderators a bit 'jumpy' in the past. We have tried to lighten up recently, but there are mistakes still or occasions that make us have to jump in. Another very recent example is one where a newbie was asking for game help and was ignored by people having an ongoing discussion about Hawaiian words. Although we didn't intervene in that situation, it sends an equally bad message to people about LDW and the forums, don't you think?

Anyway, I've rambled long enough. If you feel that our shortcomings and failings are reason for boycotts, slings and arrows, then so be it. I would ask that further posts in this thread be civil and stated in a manner that is consistent with how you would like to be treated by others. That goes for moderators and members alike. And try to remember that you're talking directly to Arthur, Carla, me, and the rest of the real people who try to keep LDW and these forums going.

Thanks.

Thank you for the insight LadyCFII. It certainly helped me understand a whole lot better. Hopefully everything will calm down at this point.

Thanks for trying Lady, but none of that really addresses the questions as to what exactly is the purpose of the SB, and why are some shouts deleted or reprimanded while others (posted within seconds of the 'offending' posts) are not?

And yes, you did apologize, etc, about my issue in the sb a few days ago, but I did not get an honest or satisfactory answer as to why my post was deleted and no one else's and you did not think it important to find out who did that, or why. My concern was not of any concern to the very people I am told to take my concerns to.

It seems like some mods can do no wrong. Rocky calling us whiners is certainly not 'good for business'. He says to ask if we have concerns, and then says he has 'no time for people who cry about it" when we do bring it to the attention of the forum. If that is the way he respects us, I do not understand why he is allowed to be in a position of authority.

The main reason I have put my 'problem' out here in this thread is because I do not get anywhere via pm, and I know a lot of others have the same concerns. I do not like having my friends feeling I am ignoring them either, when I see them in the sb and do not return their greeting. I have seen a lot of friends go away with a lately because no one replies to their attempt at a little comraderie.

Our intent is certainly not to 'tear down a forum' as was implied a few posts back, but rather to improve it, and understand the rules, see them applied fairly, and perhaps save an already dying forum.

I know you're frustrated, and so am I. Your concerns do matter. I told you then that I would work on making sure that we corrected any inequity in the way moderators do their jobs. I did try to find out earlier today why your shout was deleted, unsuccessfully. I don't know who did it or why. I agree that it was unfair. We are working on correcting that kind of thing in the future. I would ask for a little time to work on this stuff. I'm working day and night on games/game updates, and I'm only one person. I don't know what more I can say. I'm trying.

I did say in my earlier post that we make mistakes. I do, and the moderators do. I also said that I expect moderators to act civilly. We're working on that, too. No moderator is exempt from the standards that we set for the forums. I don't condone a lot of what has been said here by a lot of people.

I disagree that these forums are dying. It's true that they are continually evolving. The community changes constantly. I've been here since the beginning, and I've seen a lot of really good people leave precisely because things changed. Some left because of the SB becoming a forum feature, some left for other reasons, but the community is in constant flux. We've learned to accept that.

First let me start by apologizing if I offended anyone. I should, and do, know better than to get into a shouting match, especially in public.

Spinny I was mortified when I read your reply! I honestly don't recall ever saying that to you or anyone else! I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that I truly don't recall it. It is so out of character for me. To even think I would have talked like that (even in private) embarrasses me to the core, as it should.

I will tell you that if I, or anyone else, ever talks to you like that, that you promptly take a snapshot and send it directly to LadyCFII. It is unconscionable, and should never be tolerated.

As my family can tell you, I tend to be a bit egotistical, opinionated, and Yes, I can be argumentative, even obstinate. That's just "me."

Like everyone, I can also get in a bad mood in which case I'm down right unpleasant to associate with. I think I know when I'm in one of those moods, and generally try to avoid the forums till my head clears. To be honest when I am in a foul mood, people (even on a computer screen) are the last thing I want to deal with.

I will stand up for what I feel is "right" and will heartily defend anyone, or any cause, I believe in. THAT is the old soldier in me. So when someone attacks this forum, it gets my dander up in a hurry.

While I try to remain level headed (even in a heated discussion) I must admit I don't have the patience and calming effect our beloved Barbara does.

I meant it when I said if you have a problem with the forum you can talk to me (or any of the moderators/administrators). That is what we're here for. It doesn't mean we'll always agree with you, just that we will listen.

I'm afraid I also meant it when I said that if the forum is making you unhappy, then maybe it's not where you should be. After all, we all want and deserve to be happy. This forum, and especially my small role in it, makes me very happy. If it didn't I wouldn't be here.

I have one idea to help the forums, and that is assigning some individuals through nomination of users to be considered experts. I've seen this work in a game I recently bought, and I think it can work here. They have the ability to mute players in the game that are causing problems, and have some authority. They may be considered mods, they may not, but they save the admins work. And if the experts are able to be on a lot, perhaps the forum can become looser and the users happier.

Well, Rocky, you did say it. If I can get my old hard drive to work, I can show you proof as I did save it.

As for this...
"I will stand up for what I feel is "right" and will heartily defend anyone, or any cause, I believe in. THAT is the old soldier in me. So when someone attacks this forum, it gets my dander up in a hurry."

Yeah, me too, only let's change out "forum" for "self and friends", ok? Now do you see my point?

When you "heartily defend" this forum, you need to make sure there is not a conflict as to what is "right". I do not believe anyone "attacked" this forum. We are only seeking answers that make some sense. I feel some opf us were attacked for asking, however.

I am not going to debate this any further. I am sorry you do not think I should be here, and if that is the case, that I cannot be treated fairly and with respect by you (or any other moderator), then I would respectfully request a return of the money I have spent on games through LDW.