Why do we have a Shout Box?
The Shout Box seems to be a point of controversy and a breeding ground for animosity or confusion. The problem has always been the management styling. The inconsistencies. The fact that one day something is ok to do or say, and other days, it isn't. I saw recently in the Shout Box yet another example of these inconsistencies with a lengthy discussion between several of the LDW team and another member.

The Shout Box seems to be the biggest thorn in LDW’s side. Though the concept was nice, the practicality of it seems unobtainable. This seems to be where many issue arise between the LDW team and the forum members and even between mods, well, specifically myself when I was a moderator, (I can't speak for the others), and management. I guess LDW really should ask themselves, “is it really worth it?”. My moderating style, when it came to the Shout Box, seemed different than what the Admins would have preferred, as a result I was constantly getting written reprimands. Yes, there is always the decision making process of "is this a violation?", and what action needs to be taken, if any and that decision is dependant on the moderators perception of what is in the Shout Box and their interpretation of the forum rules, and in some cases, their personal feelings towards one member versus another.

Is it really worth it, the hassle, the miscommunication, the “politicking” this causes? I have said it before and I will say it again, why even have the Shout Box at all? What is the purpose of the Shout Box? The answer to that question has been said that it is there for people to get help and get answers.

When I see questions posed by members, there are no real answers given. I see things like "Did you look in the forum?" or "that answer is in the such-and-such forum.", but is that a real answer? We aren't supposed to put spoilers in the Shout Box. OK, I get that. So we can't give a specific answer to a question in the Shout Box. It has to be PM'd.

When I answered questions in the Shout Box, I would give a link or two that dealt with the question at hand. "You can find the answer here: http://blah-blah-blah. THAT is answering a person's question. Not "Did you look in the VF forum?". At the time I am writing this, the VF forum has 1,805 threads and over 19 and a half THOUSAND responses. People like me, who have been here a while, would have a better chance of locating an answer to the question and giving a direct answer. That would be more representative of the “family” atmosphere that is always preached. Telling a new member to go look in a particular forum for their answer is like telling them to go look for the needle in a haystack.

Now, I can hear the rebuttal being, "we don't have the time to research every request that comes through". To that I say... "Why even have the Shout Box?". Many times I have come on and someone has asked a question and it went unanswered. Most likely because someone wasn't online to answer it before they left. Even at that, no spoilers are allowed. Again, nobody takes the time to run a query and point someone to the specific answer to the question that they asked. The person who asked the question feels let down because there was no response given. “How rude” or thanks for the help” is most likely what somebody thinks at this point. The Shout Box raises expectations of the newer members only to let them down in most cases. If there was no Shout Box, people would be more likely to research the forum and use the tools of the forum, such the search feature because they wouldn’t be led to believe there is a shortcut to getting an answer.

It has also been said that the Shout Box is a place to cozy up and get to know each other. It seems even that has its limitations. Limited to "How's the weather?" and "Are you playing VV (VF, PT, FT). Other than that, things get deleted or stern warnings are given. No antics, no role playing, no consecutive posting, no frivolous posts. Why even have the Shout Box in the first place? It seems to me that there is no real purpose for it except to be a mechanism for hypocrisy, headache, false hope, and eventually, disappointment. I cannot think of any forum that I have been to where a Shout Box has been incorporated. They are strictly threads and posts. I think we would all, as a whole, benefit from the industry standard, leaving more time for the LDW team to do what they need to do and not worry about policing the Shout Box.

Since my departure as moderator in early August, the activity of the Shout Box has dwindled considerably. Most days when I pass through, the post at the top of the list that is viewable is at least 4 days old. Most of the time it is just people popping in and shouting “hi J “, followed by “Anyone here?”, followed by their sad faced departure. Again, what’s the point of having a Shout Box but to offer hope and deliver disappointment?

It just seems to me that the Admins of this forum are spinning their wheels and wasting their time and energy in trying to make a concept work when in reality, there really is no answer that will meet the needs of the demographics here in this forum. Since the Shout Box is guarded with a heavy, and sometimes fickle hand, and punishments are handed out, like being temporarily banned from the forums, or in other cases, as most of us have termed “being Red Gloved” (reference to Virtual Families), I say just kill the Shout Box. I liked the idea of the Shout Box. I liked it when I first came here almost 4 years ago, but it has become such an issue with me, that this was one of a few reasons I resigned my commission as Forum Moderator and started my own chat website where the chatting rules are looser and Red Gloving is not the first course of action. I don’t have a company image to uphold so I can do it. I essentially have 2 rules. No cursing and be respectful to others. That’s it.

The demise of the Shout Box may upset some people. Why? I don’t know, and others would cheer, but we’d all get used to it and the new members would not know any difference, so it wouldn’t bother them. This is just my opinion on this matter. Thanks for “listening”.

While I don't care if there is an sb anymore or not, I would like to add my two cents here.

I use to LOVE logging on to LDW, and play LDW games because of the sb. It was a good place to meet new people. I looked forward to new game releases, and I have gifted 3 relatives with a total of 12 games as well. I have made a few close friends through the sb, friends I hope to have for a lifetime.

Having said that...

Now LDW is not a happy place for me. When I try to post in the SB, I more often than not, find MY shouts are deleted. I get reprimanded for things others are allowed to do/say, and often the same happens to my friends. Everytime I have questioned it, I get a run around about how I violated the rules, yet the moderator/admin explaining the violation can never REALLY answer my question. I do not believe they understand the rules any better than I do. (perhaps not even as well, since what is conceived as a violation for me, is overlooked when others post the same, or worse)

Not only is the 'red glove' inconsistant, it is prejudicial. I know this will be disputed, but any long time SB user has to admit that it is obvious.

The result of the treatment I have been given, and I am talking about being called a liar by a moderator when stating fact about my VF game, having a mod tell me and 2 others via pm that we should NOT USE the sb or it will be removed (altho she later said that she didn't say that... I wish I had kept that pm) My shouts get deleted and it is an 'oversight' that even more useless shouts are allowed. We cannot tell others that we have sent them a pm so their attention is brought to the fact (against the rules)yet a game in the forum can be announced to the point of dominating the SB. I was told announcing a pm is against the rules because it doesn't effect everyone. Niether does a game. I was also told that the person the pm is for can check for new messages. The same can be said for a forum game. Check the forum. Fair is not a word that can be in any way associated with the SB.

I think it is imperitive that instead of the continual promise of improvement being handed out whenever there is a dispute over rules and fairness, that a real change be made.

I do not speak for anyone but myself when I say, I will not be spending my money on any more LDW games until something changes to correct the way some of us are treated. Being called a liar in the SB by a moderator (who by the way, is quick to reprimand in the sb, but will only discuss in private) has resulted in the retirement of my games. What fun is it to play if you get called a liar when you discuss them?

My first suggestion is that if there is reason to delete a post, or reprimand a user , pm the user and explain. Public humiliation is not going to do anything but hurt people who have actually spent money to buy the games this forum is based on. YES... WE are the customers and the people who pay the salarys of the LDW employees! I HATE it when I see these kids cower and apologize for some silly thing they got 'red gloved' for, when often it is something others have done and it was ok.

Respectfully Hoping for Change,
Spinny

Okay I'm going to put my 2 cents in as well.

I have views pretty much like the others who have discussed this subject all ready in the SB. I too have made at least 5 long life time friends here (I hope) And 3 of which I consider to be my best friends.

I have been here for three years now (first year was a lurker without a membership). I was thrilled at the forums, I saw fun in the SB, friendly people. So a year later I joined. and made great friends. And then at the beginning of this year....things started going down. And now finally it's to the point where I can't even say "Hello" in the SB without it getting deleted! How is someone supposed to know I'm there?

I feel like certain people are picked out of the members to be red gloved for just saying Hi to someone or LOLing at someone's shout. Why can others do it but we can't? It makes no sense.

I feel like anymore...what's the sense in even trying to make any new friends here? How CAN you make new friends we all you can basically say is:

"Hello? How's your peeps? How's the weather? Anything new on the previews page? Oh well bye now!"

How are you suppposed to get to know each other? I am in no means saying hand out your first name and address! I'm saying like What's your fav thing to do? What's your fav type of music? That is not identifying stuff.

Which speaking of, I and one of my closest friends received a PM stating (it was from an admin) that she had a lot of personal info on us and that we need to be careful. I tell MM everything I say in the SB (she is usually HERE in the ROOM when I'm chatting) and even she doesn't understand that. And I'd like to know why was the person even storing that? That scares me.

Also I have to agree with the way reprimands are handed out. Publicly calling a user a liar or stating that they did wrong and should stop isn't the right way to do it. It's embarrassing. I believe it should be handled by PMs.

On the subject of the rules....I don't even understand them. I mean understanding them by the literal terms by which they are written? Yeah of course I get it and thought I've followed them for the most part (we all make mistakes not saying I haven't broken one or two from time to time). But getting some of the things I've seen out of the rules...it's almost as though there's an invisible handbook that the admins/mods hold that we don't. So how are we supposed to know I ask?

I could go on and on about this but I think I've covered the most important points to me. And this is just my opinion. I'll leave the forum to decide their opinion on this.

Sincerly,

Havetia Silva

Hi,

I do realize that maybe everyone does not get to see or should I say hear from me much. But I am here everyday in the background, because my daughter loves the forum or should I say used to love this forum. She does not love it as much now. I do realize that you say you are just looking out for our children which is great, that is the reason I let her join. She and I have been on the forum for three years (again like her the first year was as lurkers) and it used to be a fun and loving forum. I used to spend hours literally LOLing at the antics that was going on in Shout Box. Now all I seem to see is fighting and this has been since there has been changes in the moderators/admins. Your need to take a good look at what it used to be like, how many people were on and what it is now. I do not think you should get rid of the Shout Box, but put it back the way it used to be (fun and loving). Do not mess with something that was not broke in the first place.

Sincerely,
Maniac Mom

PS: Let the kids have their clean, loving family back. Even us adults are kids too.

I spent loads of time here as a lurker without a membership and although I can't remember much I know it was a nicer place in the SB. I am one of those sad faced departure people. Just look in the shoutbox. I have posted twice today "Hi" and "Hello?", but I'm just ignored. The SB is no use anymore exept to allow the moderators to let people know about something easy to find themselves. I myself don't care about the forum game "Who am I?" I either want to chat or watch. I saw some of an argument between spinnything and LadyCFII about how spinnything's LOL got removed. I only made 1 true friend and shes been gone a while. I've spent most of my time her in the last month just as a lurker with a membership and have seen a few things. Not very much though.

I hope it changes and I will go on it more, but either that or...
What's the point of having it if you're limited that much? Either change it or get rid of it.

Rant over,
PT99

Yes, PT99, there was a time when your 'Hi' would have been met with enthusiasm and a conversation could have taken place, friendships formed. I have seen your shouts today. I also see an 'LOL' sitting there which I for some reason am not allowed to say. *shrugs* I don't post there anymore, so HI!

"post removed"

Gamey, old friend, I have been to other forums that also have a shout box (they were all Millsville related) and trust me "It's just as much of a headache for them as it is for us."

The biggest difference I see between this site, and the Millsville site that our friend Houjun moderates, is that there is nearly always a moderator or admin online in there.

Of course they have like 6 admins and idk how many mods, but issues do get handled more rapidly that way. There's also the fact that trouble makers are simply not tolerated. You get warned (suspended) once, then your gone for good.

Having said that, let me point out a few things you already know, but most members don't:

In that site the SB is the primary means members communicate. The forums are used for more lengthy things, most of which are not time sensitive.

In this site, the SB is an addendum. It was never intended to be a primary means of communication. It is NOT an IM replacement.

That site is hosted on an ad based server. They aren't concerned with things like "bandwidth overages" because the more people who view the ads, the better. You can pay an annual fee to make it ad free, or deal with the popups. Your choice.

Thank goodness, LDW chose not to go that route. Here, LDW bears the full cost of running the site. They pay the annual fee for us. If the SB get's particularly active and they go over the bandwidth, they get hit with a "penalty." They pay this and go on, never "reprimanding" us for being enthusiastic members.

Also, keep this in mind. When You and I joined, there were way less than a hundred thousand members. Now, there are over ONE HUNDRED SIXTY THOUSAND, and the numbers grow daily! Please forgive my mistake...When Gamey and I joined there were around TEN thousand members. THAT number has grown to over TWENTY FIVE thousand.

When you and I joined, the membership base was primarily young to middle aged adults (I suspect many of which are parents).

Since the release of Virtual Families (or maybe it was VV3) that has changed to mostly what I call "tweenagers." The majority of members now are between 8 and 20 years old.
Sorry kids, but facts is facts, and the fact is "It's a lot easier to ride herd on a crowd of adults, than a crowd of young people."

Finally, I'm going to tell you that, despite the perception, "we" do not intentionally pick on any member in or out of the SB. IF a member breaks the rules, we try to gently remind them.

If misconduct continues an admin will contact that user via PM and give them a warning. If the message still doesn't get through, other actions up to and including permanent bans are imposed. Again "We" don't like having to make people behave, but somebody has to, or there would be chaos in here.

Finally, to answer your question "Why have a Shout Box?"
The SB is (and always was) intended to be a "Meet & Greet" place.

It [b]is a place where members can exchange niceties and chat (briefly please) about their games, and every day life.

The SB is NOT a place to carry on lengthy conversations, if at all avoidable. Please use PM's for communicating with particular members, or the Forums to communicate with the entire membership. If the subject is not LDW related, we have an Off Topics forum you can use.

Whether in the SB or the Forums, we do require our members to be courteous, stay "on subject" (yes even in the OT), and follow our general rules.

The SB can and should be a fun place to say "hello" and get updates from each other. The {"overzealous?") enforcement that started this whole conversation was created because members couldn't/wouldn't follow the rules!

The "Inconsistent Enforcement" is because: 1) WE ARE HUMAN, and 2) WE ARE NOT ALWAYS ONLINE!

Believe me! It is as frustrating to us as it is to YOU the members! The Forum rules are written in very simple terms.

The Shout Box rules (you know that square just above the SB?) is even more simple! If people would just follow them, EVERYONE (including the mods & admins) would be MUCH happier.

As it says in the Shout Box Rules: "Pull up a chair and your favorite beverage and talk about life and LDW games. It should be a place where newbies are welcomed into the family and everyone feels comfortable joining in the conversation."

First, in response to rocky's shout, people dont come on because they know they can't communicate. I say this because if the sb is for people to become friends, you can only do that with lengthy conversations. It also makes people happier.

Private messages, or pms are stated as "private". It's not common to have "private" conversasions with someone that you dont know.

Maybe if there was an off topic thread where we could have conversasions without having to follow the sb rules as much, it would help solve this.

Just a question, no one has to answer, I'd just like them to think about it. Why was I able to have conversasions about snow, or how people were, or other things that are now deleted on site, a few months ago?

One last thing, I am glad I got the warnings before getting banned, however, I wasn't aware of what "roleplay" meant. Whether I should have known, I dont know, but most of the younger kids that are picking up on these games probably dont know what it means, which can cause confusion.

An uphappy member,
Luke

p.s. I am glad that ldw is willing to spend money for the forum, but its becoming a waste. This forum used to be a happy place with many posts a day, now its just "Who am I", with very few people actually participating.

Dear Rocky,

Now from what I just read, it sounds as if because all of us who love to have fun and get to know new people and have a blast with our friends, that made the forums so popular place. Which took up bandwidth. So now because of this we are being punished, by telling us that we can't do this or can't do that, because it costs too much. Why didn't you just ask if we wouldn't mind paying a little to help with the costs of keeping this place a fun ACTIVE place?

~ManiacMom

That post didn't even address our problems or concerns. It just flaked over a few things. We followed the "simple SB rules" most of the time. And you know what? We still got yelled at. Please tell me how saying LOL to a user's joke is considered against the "simple SB rules" We can't laugh at each others jokes? You say the rules are easy to understand and follow but they're not! They don't even make sense with the stuff we've gotten yelled at for.

~Havetia Silva

I think one reason we're not allowed to lol is because it's considered "frivilous". I'd guess it adds on to the longer conversasion or something like that.

I'm sorry Rocky, I like ya loads and all but:
Unfortunately, I was expecting such a response. Once again, the concerns of the members are overlooked and we are fed the standard "follow the rules" statements. But if anyone pays attention in class here, you would see that the rules are in conflict with the moderating style of the SB and are the issue, at least partly. And it seems that Rockmower's own words contradict the quote he puts at the bottom of his post.



but then later, in the same post the SB rules are quoted to say:

"Pull up a chair and your favorite beverage and talk about life and LDW games. It should be a place where newbies are welcomed into the family and everyone feels comfortable joining in the conversation."

Sounds like a cozy fun place to be... as long as you keep it short and sweet, drink your drink real fast, get on and then get out. The statement quoted from the Shout Box Rules is nothing more than an empty platitude. A falsehood said to lure one into thinking this is a warm and wonderful place. It has become very cold and now lacks personality, so why not just complete it by removing the SB and there will not be any misleading perceptions or expectations?

Rocky, I am sorry, but what a bunch of 'spin it my way once again'. Seriously, I think you would be so much better off trying to understand it from our point of view than once again giving us the same 'skirt the real issue' statement.

My 'LOL' was deleted a few days ago, while a remained. The posts were next to each other. The person that deleted my laughter,did not delete the , or explain how one violated rules and the other did not, even after I pointedly asked 2 or 3 times. I NEVER get a straight answer, I never get a sincere apology, (and no, "have your avi kick my avi's "butt", which was your answer when you called me a liar, is not a sincere apology, or an explaination) and I see a lot of "swallow this because I say it is in the rules".

I see 'LOL' posts there now that are allowed to stay. How do you expect that to make me feel? (yeah, that's what I thought... it's in the rules that Spinny better hush up)

Please stop talking to us like we are idiots.

Since I have not been on much, feel free to correct me if I say something misleading, wrong, ect.

When I first joined, the shout box was a place to have interesting conversations, goof around a bit, ask for help, the usual things.
I even remember at one point me and a few other peeps accidently broke it(many laughs were had). No one was punished, even though the cause of said breaking was possibly the spamming of special characters.

Now from what I'm hearing now it seems you can get punished for the smallest of things. I don't want to believe that, but I can't also believe spinny(and others apparently) would break the rules on purpose.

I don't know how much bandwidth the SB is taking, so I can't make a valid argument against that issue. But surely it can't be THAT much? Even with the increase of users (some of which who probably don't even use the SB, but that could also be credited to this issue...)

(My View on Why We Need The SB)
Using PMs to have a conversation with a bevy of people seems like an inconvenience to me. For one thing, others can't join in on the conversation unless they ask or are asked (which means filling the PM limit faster). Second, you would have to refresh the page constantly to know if you received a reply (Havetia). Third," OH and also sometimes the pages can be a pain I mean it can grow so large by the end of a convo. Because it's very hard to keep the convo if you wish because you have to copy it line at a time"
(thanks Havetia for your input)


I can't think of other reasons right now, but if they come to mind I'll add them later.

TL;DR. If the shout box wasn't there, we'd have more problems with inconvenience, threads about suggesting a SB would pop up, and new users would constantly feel pressured whether or not to ask a question about something that they can't find with the search engine(and may have or have not already been answered).

Once again... if I said something wrong or took it out of context, let me know. It's the only way I can get the full scope of the problem.

EDIT: Also, Yes lighten up on the rules a bit or the "unfair moderation". Otherwise I agree we should not have an SB at all. This isn't the place for drama.

You missed my point entirely. LDW is not complaining about the cost, as far as I know. I was merely pointing out the difference between 2 sites with active SB's.

One is ad based, & has a lot of admins and mods who CAN be on line 24x7 to supervise the content. Ours, is not ad based, has no cost to the members, but has a very limited number of mods/admins to watch over the SB.

AGAIN: In some forums the SB is intended as the primary means of communications. In THIS forum, it's a nice little addendum which allows people to chat about time sensitive issues.

AND, ONE MORE TIME: The SB here, is NOT NOT NOT intended to be the PRIMARY means which member use to communicate.


And, to the one's who think I'm putting a spin on this, I'll say only this: I am stating an opinion. It is my opinion, and mine only. It is not formed by, suggested by, nor approved by LDW. This is only MY opinion as both a moderator and a member.

And now, I will say what Barbara (bless her for being the kind, patient, gentle person that she is) would Never say.

I highly question the motives of people (friend or not) who appear to be stirring a pot of discontent. It really is this simple: If you enjoy coming here, then please stay and have fun. If not, then please take your sour attitude elsewhere.

I, for one, simply don't have the patience to deal with people who want to simply whine about how mistreated they are. You want a challenge? Go volunteer at a nursing home. Those people at least have a reason to complain.

Whoa Rocky! I hope the administrators read this and know how much you think of us, the people their income depends on, because if they are going to let people like you represent them, there won't be many willing to say anything good about LDW, will there?

Having a legitimate concern about the disrespect shown to us is not stirring the pot. We have been trying to get answers to these questions for a VERY long time. If I spoke to you the way you have spoken to me in the sb and pm's, I would have been banned. Respect is a two way street.

WE would like to see change. I don't believe it is going to happen though, as long as people with 'they are just whiners' attitudes run the show. I will spend my $$ (to date over $200, btw) on games from companies that care about their customers, and you can be sure I will not give a good review about LDW as long as I am treated like this.

And for your information, I have spent many years working in nursing homes, and facilities for developmentally disabled. I certainly hope you are never in a trusted position to care for people who cannot speak up for themselves if you think it is ok to treat people like you are 'riding herd' on them.

To show how much you don't know about me, my wife was diagnosed 2 years ago with early onset Alzheimer's. No, I don't have much patience for dealing with people who complain because a post or shout got deleted. I assure you the admins will read this as they do all new posts to the forum.

I am not disrespecting you by asking you to address legitimate concerns rather than cry because someone told you no and you thought it was unfair.

As I have told you, and others, many times, if you have a complaint about something bring it to our attention. If you have a complaint about a person try talking to that person. If you can't / won't talk directly to someone who you think is being unfair, then talk to their boss.

There are a lot of people who DO think highly of LDW and the games they create. Believe it or not, there are even one or two people who think I'm a nice guy.

I respect each person who comes here, and hope they have a pleasant experience. If you have a problem, or concern about a game, that is legitimate, and should be addressed.

But people continuing to complain incessantly (stir the pot) because they are unhappy with the shout box is not constructive to anyone. It merely darkens the attitudes of people who do come here to have fun.

Being a member does have privileges, but the right to try and tear down the forums others are working so hard to build is NOT one of them. LDW can get along just fine without people who want to rewrite the rules rather than play by them.

I will be truthful and admit that I enjoy the games. Rocky does have a point, that if you dont like it, dont look at it. So I'd like to get my account deleted, but at least leave my two finished fan fics up, please. I also see spinnies point, but this arguement is going nowhere.(that was aimed at both sides). I do think if the sb is such a problem, in its current state of underuse, it should be deleted, then the pming can commense. Good bye forum.

"As I have told you, and others, many times, if you have a complaint about something bring it to our attention. If you have a complaint about a person try talking to that person. If you can't / won't talk directly to someone who you think is being unfair, then talk to their boss."

Yes, you have, and I have tried, YOU personally told me to "have your avi kick my avi's 'butt' (only the 'a' word was used) and 'forget it' when I pm'd you about calling me a liar in the SB, so don't tell me to 'ask in private'.

WHY can't anyone just give an honest answer to the simple question I asked? Why was MY shout chosen out of many in the same 2" space as the ONE to delete? If it were yours, you would want to know too. It has made me not want to say anything in the sb, not even a 'Hi' to anyone. I AM NOT ALONE! The original question in this thread was "why do we have an sb?" That has not been answered either. What IS the purpose?

From my point of view, what you have here are loyal usres that wish to have the LDW forum be something worth coming to, and all YOU can do is insult our intelligence. Why would so many agree, and not one disagree but you, a moderator?

Nvm... you just won't try to see ... i am tired of explaining. I am sorry aboput your wife. WE ALL have hardships. Many here know I have lost my only son. I don't use it as an excuse to insult people.

There is no need to dramatize the situation any further Luke. I agree with both sides as well.

And thanks Rockmower for your opinion, though I think I misinterpreted as well. But(and I could be wrong), many other people are having the same problem as well, no?

I think if a clear answer was given, other than "you broke a rule", this discussion would end faster.

im not overreacting, well maybe I am, but I dont need the forums, I never use them, because, I have no use, no ones shouting, no ones posting, its become a ghost town, or town with people to terrified to come out of thier "homes" in fear of someone punishing them for something innocent. Perhaps you can help yourself by coming up with a plan to make sure prejudice doesn't happen, and actually enforce it. I understand that the sb and forums are a courtesy by ldw, but they're not being used. The benefits of being a member aren't really fun any more. So im going to try to be nice and remove myself before I lose control. The way I see (yes I know that our minds are biased to) some adults treat teenagers, even thought they may have recently been one, simply because we're different. Im going to try to reduce stress all around. The forums dont equal positive to me anymore, so I have no need for them. So good bye all. I'd still like my two completed stories kept. At least as long I guess as they still follow the rules.
I will play the games because they equal positive. And I have seen the mods and admins not delete each other stuff, even when it breaks the rules.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But I hope you return one day. Yes this place seems to be a bit dead, with the exception of WHO AM I. That is the only reason I get on more often besides awaiting the release of vv5.

Let's see if I can try to salvage this situation, since I can see it's teetering on the edge. I happened to reply immediately after 30flame's latest post, but it is not a reply to anyone in particular. This just happens to be where it landed in the thread.

Warning! This is going to be long.

First off, I'd like to speak for myself (and no one else). I am a person, a human being with feelings, just like everyone else here. I like to be treated fairly, just like everyone else here. When I'm falsely accused of something like arguing with someone in the SB, it hurts me just as much as when any of you feel mistreated. I did not argue with anyone in the SB, and in fact, I defended spinnything and extended an apology for what took place prior to my entering the SB and seeing what was happening. I think it's important to set the record straight there.

Second, I'd like to say that we (LDW) are not ogres, the enemy, or anything of the sort. We're also not a large, faceless company that has the resources to provide myriad interesting things for their communities to have fun with. LDW is Arthur and Carla. They are the people who work their tails off to make games, provide the forums, juggle all of the logistics involved with keeping things going while trying to have some semblance of family life with their infant son. It's their money that has to pay the people (contractors) who help make the games a reality, pay for these forums and all of the other servers that provide the public face of LDW, just to name a few things. If anyone thinks that keeping a game company going is easy, I can tell you that it's not. We work harder, and longer hours, than most of you would imagine. We are affected by this down economy, too. As Arthur has said publicly, pricing pressures in the casual game arena have had a significant impact on the 'value' of new game releases. We're having to do more with less, and that doesn't give us the luxury to do everything we'd like to do, exactly as we'd like.

Maybe if I shared with all of you a little history, it will help you understand how we got here. Those of you who honestly want to reach a place of understanding might appreciate knowing, and might even have a little compassion for our situation. I hope so. I shared this with Gamey and the other moderators a couple of months ago, but I think it might help everyone in the community. Here we go:

For the first couple of years of the forums' existence, there was nothing here but discussion about our games - Palm, then Pocket PC, and finally Windows and Mac desktop games. No Shout Box, no Off-Topic discussions - only specific game forums (and not very many of those). The Guides section came about a couple of months after Fish Tycoon Windows was released.

Once the Shout Box arrived with the first forum software upgrade in late 2006, before many of you arrived here, the entire character of the forums changed, and so did the workload associated with managing them. Over the course of the next 12 months, we considered lots of different ways to make the forums fun and appealing, and we implemented some of them. As you all know, we made mistakes along the way, sometimes having to put restrictions on, or even reverse, earlier decisions. The Forum Games and signature images are just two examples of that kind of thing.

We revisited our forum strategy in early 2008, looking to get some help with the 'fun and appealing' aspects of the LDW forums. Carla wanted, and I quote, "to see if there is a way to improve the situation in the forums and maybe add some fun to them. We all know how busy we all are and we would need a volunteer to help us with the contest, polls, tournaments stuff to keep the community busy, entertained and focused."

I recommended Gamey and Eyeshigh, and Arthur and Carla took it from there.

I think it would have worked, if the 'focused' part of that strategy had not failed. We wanted forum activity focused around LDW games - polls, contests, and LDW-themed forums games, such as those cool games in the Official Forum Games section. Instead, the Shout Box became the center of activity here, which put a tremendous load on moderators and admins. We simply cannot operate a chat room, IM service, or social media network with the scarce resources we have.

You also should understand that we sometimes bite off more than we can handle, given the extremely limited resources (people and money) available to LDW. Arthur, Carla and I are always overextended, and things are always falling through the cracks. It was entirely LDW's fault that the 'focus' part failed, since we simply didn't have the time, resources, or money to fuel the fun in a way that fit our stated strategy. It started well, but we simply couldn't continue to devote the necessary resources and energy to keeping it going. The contests dwindled and died out, and everyone became very frustrated. We do understand the impact of that. We never intended to 'give and take away.' I hope you can all believe that. We were simply consumed with the amount of work - we still are. This is a direct quote from one of our internal emails last year, that might help you understand that we do understand:

The economic downturn started growing worse about that time, too, putting additional pressure on everything.

I'd like all of you to think for a second about this scenario…
Picture your family, however big or small it is, and try to envision your family running all the stuff that you see this handful of people doing. Some of you might be interested in seeing another SB saga here that really illustrates the kind of thing that has made the moderators a bit 'jumpy' in the past. We have tried to lighten up recently, but there are mistakes still or occasions that make us have to jump in. Another very recent example is one where a newbie was asking for game help and was ignored by people having an ongoing discussion about Hawaiian words. Although we didn't intervene in that situation, it sends an equally bad message to people about LDW and the forums, don't you think?

Anyway, I've rambled long enough. If you feel that our shortcomings and failings are reason for boycotts, slings and arrows, then so be it. I would ask that further posts in this thread be civil and stated in a manner that is consistent with how you would like to be treated by others. That goes for moderators and members alike. And try to remember that you're talking directly to Arthur, Carla, me, and the rest of the real people who try to keep LDW and these forums going.

Thanks.

Thank you for the insight LadyCFII. It certainly helped me understand a whole lot better. Hopefully everything will calm down at this point.

Thanks for trying Lady, but none of that really addresses the questions as to what exactly is the purpose of the SB, and why are some shouts deleted or reprimanded while others (posted within seconds of the 'offending' posts) are not?

And yes, you did apologize, etc, about my issue in the sb a few days ago, but I did not get an honest or satisfactory answer as to why my post was deleted and no one else's and you did not think it important to find out who did that, or why. My concern was not of any concern to the very people I am told to take my concerns to.

It seems like some mods can do no wrong. Rocky calling us whiners is certainly not 'good for business'. He says to ask if we have concerns, and then says he has 'no time for people who cry about it" when we do bring it to the attention of the forum. If that is the way he respects us, I do not understand why he is allowed to be in a position of authority.

The main reason I have put my 'problem' out here in this thread is because I do not get anywhere via pm, and I know a lot of others have the same concerns. I do not like having my friends feeling I am ignoring them either, when I see them in the sb and do not return their greeting. I have seen a lot of friends go away with a lately because no one replies to their attempt at a little comraderie.

Our intent is certainly not to 'tear down a forum' as was implied a few posts back, but rather to improve it, and understand the rules, see them applied fairly, and perhaps save an already dying forum.

I know you're frustrated, and so am I. Your concerns do matter. I told you then that I would work on making sure that we corrected any inequity in the way moderators do their jobs. I did try to find out earlier today why your shout was deleted, unsuccessfully. I don't know who did it or why. I agree that it was unfair. We are working on correcting that kind of thing in the future. I would ask for a little time to work on this stuff. I'm working day and night on games/game updates, and I'm only one person. I don't know what more I can say. I'm trying.

I did say in my earlier post that we make mistakes. I do, and the moderators do. I also said that I expect moderators to act civilly. We're working on that, too. No moderator is exempt from the standards that we set for the forums. I don't condone a lot of what has been said here by a lot of people.

I disagree that these forums are dying. It's true that they are continually evolving. The community changes constantly. I've been here since the beginning, and I've seen a lot of really good people leave precisely because things changed. Some left because of the SB becoming a forum feature, some left for other reasons, but the community is in constant flux. We've learned to accept that.

First let me start by apologizing if I offended anyone. I should, and do, know better than to get into a shouting match, especially in public.

Spinny I was mortified when I read your reply! I honestly don't recall ever saying that to you or anyone else! I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that I truly don't recall it. It is so out of character for me. To even think I would have talked like that (even in private) embarrasses me to the core, as it should.

I will tell you that if I, or anyone else, ever talks to you like that, that you promptly take a snapshot and send it directly to LadyCFII. It is unconscionable, and should never be tolerated.

As my family can tell you, I tend to be a bit egotistical, opinionated, and Yes, I can be argumentative, even obstinate. That's just "me."

Like everyone, I can also get in a bad mood in which case I'm down right unpleasant to associate with. I think I know when I'm in one of those moods, and generally try to avoid the forums till my head clears. To be honest when I am in a foul mood, people (even on a computer screen) are the last thing I want to deal with.

I will stand up for what I feel is "right" and will heartily defend anyone, or any cause, I believe in. THAT is the old soldier in me. So when someone attacks this forum, it gets my dander up in a hurry.

While I try to remain level headed (even in a heated discussion) I must admit I don't have the patience and calming effect our beloved Barbara does.

I meant it when I said if you have a problem with the forum you can talk to me (or any of the moderators/administrators). That is what we're here for. It doesn't mean we'll always agree with you, just that we will listen.

I'm afraid I also meant it when I said that if the forum is making you unhappy, then maybe it's not where you should be. After all, we all want and deserve to be happy. This forum, and especially my small role in it, makes me very happy. If it didn't I wouldn't be here.

I have one idea to help the forums, and that is assigning some individuals through nomination of users to be considered experts. I've seen this work in a game I recently bought, and I think it can work here. They have the ability to mute players in the game that are causing problems, and have some authority. They may be considered mods, they may not, but they save the admins work. And if the experts are able to be on a lot, perhaps the forum can become looser and the users happier.

Well, Rocky, you did say it. If I can get my old hard drive to work, I can show you proof as I did save it.

As for this...
"I will stand up for what I feel is "right" and will heartily defend anyone, or any cause, I believe in. THAT is the old soldier in me. So when someone attacks this forum, it gets my dander up in a hurry."

Yeah, me too, only let's change out "forum" for "self and friends", ok? Now do you see my point?

When you "heartily defend" this forum, you need to make sure there is not a conflict as to what is "right". I do not believe anyone "attacked" this forum. We are only seeking answers that make some sense. I feel some opf us were attacked for asking, however.

I am not going to debate this any further. I am sorry you do not think I should be here, and if that is the case, that I cannot be treated fairly and with respect by you (or any other moderator), then I would respectfully request a return of the money I have spent on games through LDW.

Spinny, while I agree with you that you have been treated unfairly, LDW themselves is not to blame.

As I asked before, I would wish to be removed from the forum. If I need to pm someone that request, please let me know.

Actually before it goes unnoticed. Luke I think you have a good idea there. I think good would come out of it. I've seen this method work on other forums very well.

Okay now onto the current issue at hand. Oh where to even begin this. First of all I think all of us have good points and bad points. And I believe that all of us may have been a bit harsh sounding at one time or another in this thread, and I do apologize if I've come off that way. I also believe that there has been some miscommunication through all this although I can't seem to put my finger on what exactly is being misunderstood. Also I do still believe to some extent there is some..what's a good word here. Grudges being held between certain members/admins/mods that are making them judgemental. I'm not pointing fingers at any particular person I'm just saying. I'm stating opinion not fact.

I know we all make mistakes. We all do. We're only human. Nothing more or less. It's in our nature to do so. Moderaters and Admins can't be perfect all the time. And I realize this. But I just feel it got out of hand. I personally have no idea why my hello (just one in there not like rows of them) Got deleted. *shrugs*

I believe that there has been fault on both sides of this fence. But I still believe that there have been many things here that have happend that were uncalled for. Like I found Spinny get called a liar for stating that her VF peeps were jumping on the cat, which I have seen with my own eyes AND even have a screenshot. I've seen Jayla get yelled out for answering a question in there that was NOT a spoiler.

Basically I feel like anymore, what CAN we talk about without being red-gloved?

I hope somebody can make sense of this ramble.

~Havetia Silva

I'll start off with saying this whole topic has made me sit back and carefully consider everyone's viewpoints.

I'd like to apologize first for anyone that I might have offended. I have never meant to cause offense. I do realize that I have most likely been overzealous at times in my administration of the forums. I am of aware of that, and have been doing my best to not allow that to happen again. Barbara is an excellent teacher and I learn from her every time we speak.

There's not much else to say that hasn't been said previously in this thread by others - admins, mods & members alike. I think several members have had good ideas; ones that are worthy of attention.

That being said, I hope *all* of you will stick around and work with us (or just be patient, that's good too!) while we straighten out this situation and get things back on track.

I come here regularly to read the forums, but never pay any attention to the SB. That's not quite true - I have happened to notice my name a couple of times there and responded, but normally I don't use it. There is a certain element of dèja vu here, as I well recall the earlier thread on the same subject linked to by Barbara; I was surprised then as now about the ill-feeling generated by the SB and its use and (alleged) misuse.

I started here before the SB was made available, and wouldn't miss it if LDW were to decide to withdraw it. As I said, I don't use it myself anyway, but if it's the cause of ill-feeling among the community perhaps it ought to be removed. On the other hand, I realise that a number of people enjoy using it.

I've spent many years using the Internet and am only too aware that it is possible for someone to misunderstand what someone has written, and take issue with it, even though the original person had no intention of causing offence. With the SB the problem is greater than in the forum itself since responses are written quickly, without time for editing, and are seen almost instantly.

I expect this to be my last comment in this thread, and on this subject, as well, at least in public. If anyone wants to continue discussing specific issues with me, PLEASE move it to a PM. Feel free to include others if you wish, but it's rarely a good idea to air private grievances in public.

Luke You are welcome here, as is everyone. You have made contributions that I at least consider valuable, and I would like to see you continue.

Spinny, I never said I wanted you to leave either. You are another of the currently active members, and you are helping shape the current face of the forum.


As Barb pointed out, this forum is in a state of constant change. The way it is now, is not the same as it was a year ago, or will be year from now.

When I came here, the list of "active members" (those who logged in daily) was entirely different. So were the conversations. If you remain an active member here for very long, you will notice a similar change.

The point I'm trying to make to all of you is this:

Everyone deserves to be happy. The founding fathers of the Republic we call the United States of America considered it to be one of the core rights of all people. They ranked it right up there with Life & Liberty.

Knowing this, my advice is that we, as individuals, need to decide what makes us happy. We also need to decide what makes us unhappy.

If you walked into a restaurant and found the food good, you'd probably come back. If, after visiting that establishment for a period of time, the food changed and you no longer liked it, you'd probably quit going there.

You might come back from time to time to see if things changed, or you might not. No one would be telling you not to come back, nor would you be asking for a refund on the many fine meals you enjoyed up to that point.

It is a decision, a highly personal one, that each of us has to make. "Am I happy?" If yes, Great! If no, then "What will make me happy?"

If I own the restaurant, then I can make decisions based on my customers feedback. I can keep some items on the menu, and take others off. I can try new recipes, or stick with some old favorites.

I do not, however expect the customers to start demanding that I fire the cook, or change the seating arrangements.

What would you do if you found out a server was spitting in the food of one or more of your loyal customer's, even if that person did it because they thought the customer complained too much or broke a rule of dining etiquette?

I would like to start this post out with my own apology. I am sorry that in my second post I seemed to have attacked Rockmower directly. The fact is, his statement was written and therefore put himself out there. As a representative of LDW, it may have been more prudent to have let the Administration make the first move. I do however want to say it was not an attack. It was yet another example of how the rules are interpreted by others. It was pointing out how, even though the rules say one thing, they can get twisted into something else to fit one's own perception of how things should be run.

When I got the invite from Carla, I was told specifically to bring back the fun factor to the forum. I tried with all my might to make that happen. I used my own knowledge of Flash to create coloring books and a maze. I ran a few contests and forum games (Although the Easter Egg Hunt was a disaster and I take full credit for that one). In the end I failed. Some of my failure was due to the restraints given to me later and then, what I perceived as lack of interest in what I was trying to do. I can only do so much. In the end, I felt as if I were nothing more than a glorified member with extra powers (which I do miss but it was me who asked for my demotion).

The history lesson of LDW, though fascinating, didn't really, in my opinion, have much of anything to do with my original post. I thought my message was clear. I took 3 days to compose that post. It was a factual representation of my views of a problem between the LDW Forum and its members. I was not just complaining. I was stating it as I saw it and I gave a solution to those issues. I had a boss once who taught me not to complain about something unless you have a viable solution to the complaint. I did that. Remove the SB. Drastic? Yes. A solution to the problem? Yes.

It was said above,

I do not believe anybody, ESPECIALLY myself, ever belittled or blamed Carla and Arthur. I had the great fortune to meet them personally and sit with them at a sidewalk café in San Francisco. They are 2 of the nicest people you will ever meet. I thoroughly enjoyed my visit with them and I will treasure that moment in my history for as long as my brain still functions properly. I have nothing but the utmost respect for them and what they do. They would have been people I would have loved to cultivate into a personal friendship, but that would most likely have been a conflict of interest.

Nobody has a complaint in this thread about the games they produce. I can imagine the tremendous battle they have trying to make a living making the games they do in this topsy-turvy world of economical uncertainty. I applaud their effort and hope they always find a way to make it work for them. If it works for them, then we benefit from it. I really just wanted to go on record with that. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand but, again, since it was posted, the door was open for comment.

Though LDW is Arthur and Carla, and the forum is a bi-product of LDW, they are not the "front man". Yes, they give it direction, but it is not them who are here everyday, dealing with the day-to-day issues that arise. They have better things to focus on. That is why they chose to have someone else deal with that. So, again, I don't see how the history lesson has anything to do with what my original post was about. If anything, it actually reinforced it. Though not intentionally, it reinforced my observation.


A couple of those points are these:

• "Once the Shout Box arrived with the first forum software upgrade in late 2006, before many of you arrived here, the entire character of the forums changed, and so did the workload associated with managing them."
• ...the Shout Box became the center of activity here, which put a tremendous load on moderators and admins. We simply cannot operate a chat room, IM service, or social media network with the scarce resources we have..."
• "...things are always falling through the cracks. It was entirely LDW's fault that the 'focus' part failed, since we simply didn't have the time, resources, or money to fuel the fun in a way that fit our stated strategy."

So, again, my solution is remove the SB. Remove the SB and it will remove many other variables that have a negative impact on the company image as a whole.

One last point I would like to address before I end this post, and again, I am sorry if this is rather direct, but it needs saying. It was stated above that:
"LDW can get along just fine without people who want to rewrite the rules rather than play by them."

Yes, LDW CAN get along fine without some people, but when there is an obvious conflict, it is our right to bring it to the attention of those who count and MAKE changes. THAT is what this country is based on. THAT is the reason we have soldiers. THAT is how we make a better life for ourselves. I will not idly stand by and have someone tell me not to make waves in the pool. I will not cower in the corner while someone tells me that "this is the way it is, like it or lump it". That didn’t work for me when my Dad told me that as a kid and it surely doesn’t work for me now as an adult.

As much as I protest, I protest to bring positive change. As much as this place has aggravated me in the past, I cannot seem to cut the apron strings so-to-speak. It is out of my unwavering loyalty to Arthur and Carla that I protest. I know this can be a better place. I know what potentials this place could have. I couldn't do it as a moderator, so now that I don't have the stigma of "company representative" anymore, I am once again free to state my own opinions and if I rally the troops behind me, great! Maybe someone will finally listen and concede for the greater good. Do not tell me to, in essence, sit down and shut up. That will just make me find a bigger soapbox in which to stand upon and a bigger megaphone to yell through.

I have brought this SB issue up as a moderator more times than I can count, though my solution wasn't to remove the SB. Maybe if I bring this to a public forum, maybe I will be taken a bit more seriously. This is all said and done with love. Trust me. Nowhere in here should this be conceived as hostile attacks. I just think that for all things said, maybe LDW would be better off without the SB. The SB, when looked at by the public, is a place to have open conversations and get a bit silly with one another. If that is not what the SB is to be, and if it causes all the hostility it seems to, and added workload, and headaches, maybe getting rid of it would be the best plan of action.

Well said Gamey! I would just like to add...

"LDW can get along just fine without people who want to rewrite the rules rather than play by them."

I think most of us would be more than happy to play by 'the rules' if there were rules that everyone could understand, and if they were applied equally to everyone.

(who knew a simple LOL was against the rules? Seriously?)

...and for Pete's sake, if a mod has issue with something said in the SB, let the user know in a pm, Own your decision, and explain in specific terms why you see it as a violation. It seems to me like we should have the right to know what we did wrong and why it is against the rules, how else do we learn? If that is too much to handle, then perhaps there should not be an SB.

I have read all the posts and I think the solution to part of the problem is what Luke said. Why don't you get more moderators on, so that you can have momderators on 24 hours a day and here is how I think you could go about this.

1. Ask who would like to be a moderator.
2. Interview them to see who would qualify.
3. Make sure that there is at least 2 mods on at all times. So make sure you pick out enough to help in this area.

I do think that you need to relax on your rules a little bit or just tweak them a little.
Like the frivolous posts. If someone comes on and that's all he/she does or say, then I can understand. Why come in if that is all you're going to say.

Also I think you might want to lighten up on the role-play. That's what makes life fun. And a lot of games come from this. And of course don't let it run a muck just let it happen sometimes.

Now for the answers that really haven't been answered, just skirted around, like where one person was getting picked on. Since the issue has been brought to light, maybe it won't happen again and we can try to forgive and forget and start over with a new slate.

~ManiacMom

I may be a little 12-year- old, But I must put my opinion out there.

First and foremost, I apologize in advance. Also, The Hawaiian words incident was entirely my fault and I feel regret about it. But right now I will not jump to either side, but instead sit on this rather uncomfortable fence.

I like the shoutbox a lot. It's a place where no one treats me like a mindless 3-year-old like most adults do. I feel equal there. Also, it's a place where no one can point out my weird-dish name, my awkward date of birth, my not too great medical history and status, What my house looks like, and My deep voice ( I'm not handicapped.) But I agree with Arnie, this a major miscommuncation between many people with different opinions. I have broken the rules but have been explained to how I broke the rules. It was always in a nice way, but also reminding me that maybe I need read the SB rules a bit more.

I was in disbelief when I was told that that Rocky had called Spinny a Liar As I generally thought of him as a nice dude and I still do think he's a nice guy. I don't think the SB should be deleted forever, But I also see the issue. I have heard but have not witnessed any acts of bullying. But I know of grudges between members. I simply suggest that maybe both ides be a little kinder and when some one should perhaps rewrite the SB rules to the most understandable form they can think of. I would be happy to write a rough draft for a moderator to use.

I understand the SB rules but I think that sometimes EVERYONE may bend them and break once or twice ( I know I do ). When I read this topic I was having mixed emotions.
How could some people be some what rude to people that they know not much about, But if they compared they're experiences they would all be good friends again? Why is this a big fight repeating certain points over and over again?
Why are others pointing out others flaws? Why is the fence so uncomfortable!?
This really is just fighting fire with fire and I need to point out neither side is exactly "right" or faultless here. So why not ALL work together to make the forums a friendlier place and figure out a solution for this problem ? So let's
say our sorries and bury the old hatchet. Please?

I'm sorry if I offended anyone while expressing my opinion or if I sounded a bit mad. I mean everything I said and Hope this may help resolve this issue. I hope I didn't sound like a hippie.

Sincerely,
The queen of klutzes, C.C

CC, I like your post a lot! I think you understand that extremes are not the answer; thinking about a solution that will work for most of the people here is the right way to do things. You may be 12, but you have shown that you possess a great deal of wisdom.

Thanks!

Amen CC!

Yeah,YAY CC! LOL!

Maybe if we want a shoutbox, we need to be nice to others. If someone did something wrong, a gentle warning should work. A good sb conversation should be like this: saying hello, bringing up something, maybe in the news, talking about it, a talk about something else.
I agree with the mod idea. Say, for EXAMPLE, Rocky and Gamey can do 2-4 PM. Then two others start working. For midnight, I'm not sure.

I'm not done. I'll admit both sides are at fault, but Im going to continue standing for whats right, because, no matter where I go there is fault. fence .I do not expect the mods or admins to read this, or at least respond, but I'm still going to post it. This side of the fence has provided ideas, but they all fall on deaf ears. So have my requests to be removed. I no longer wish to be removed, I saw lady post a problem with that, but no one ever told me. I no longer wish to be removed, but I do doubt I'll post after this... at least for awhile. If anyone wishes to talk to me, either catch me on gameys site, or pm me. I may occasionally be on here at some point.

We are listening to all sides of the issue and are considering many different options. It's too early to post anything official right now, though, so we ask for everyone's patience.

But I would have to wonder about the sincerity of that "listening" judged strictly on the posts made by the LDW team members throughout this thread (except Xay ), mainly posts #224964 and #224968, or ANY posts made by one particular team member. Doesn't seem to me like the best team member with an open mind to help structure fair rules.
Seems like this DID all fall on deaf ears to me. I guess we shall see...

GAMEY! is it a settlement of accounts?

I am not sure exactly what you mean by that, Laurence, so i cannot answer it for you, unless it was meant as a rhetorical question. lol

I mean that this thread looks like more and more a settling of scores between moderators, ex-moderator and new moderator. And I find that shocking.
Especially since it does not really concern us!

Laurence,

It has absolutely nothing to do with settling scores. I am not being vengeful for I have nothing to be vengeful about, and it does have EVERYTHING to do with you and every other member on here. There appears to be a great injustice here and I am standing up and being heard. As I stated above, I am no longer considered a representative of the company. I do not hold a position on the LDW team anymore and because of this, I am able to state my opinions once again without fear of putting LDW in bad light by saying things of a personal nature while I hold that LDW position. It would not have been right or considerate of the company if I did that.

My original post was not an attack on any one person. It was made to point out my thoughts on the way things are run here. To show, even in this thread, how things are contradictory and are perceived differently between each member of the LDW team. I want change. I want fairness across the board. It was because of these inconsistencies that I quit being a moderator here. Vengeance brings nothing but grief. Standing up and being heard, backed by the power of examples of proof and offering a solution seems most logical.

I have a point to prove. That's the whole thing here, I have a point to be made and I am making it. You don't have to agree with me. That is completely your choice. That is the choice of everyone who reads this thread. Agree, disagree... That is what makes a debate a debate. Debate me. Tell me I am wrong. I don't care. That is your right. I don't have to agree with you. That is my right. Exercise your right. I am exercising mine. Please understand this though, it has absolutely nothing to do with settling scores, for, like I said before, I have no scores to settle. I chose to leave. I am just trying to make this a fair and even place by pointing out the flaws... It is not being vengeful. It is having a backbone and standing up to be heard.

What has become of my beloved LDW forums and SB where I had such fun? I used to love to log on, read posts and have a chat but now so many are squabbling and complaining!!

I love you all, so please , and let's all be loving friends again.

I don't care about LDW anymore, the only reason why I'm here is to talk to a friend, and we talk on other sites too.
And...
THANK goodness the SB is gone. All it is...
is disappointment mixed with noobs mixed with reprimands.
I'm sorry, but thank goodness.
For a while, I'd switch back to how it was before 06, LDW gaming discussion only, sorry.
Then I'd go back to um...
having additional perks?
(((((I shouldn't even be here. :I
I haven't bought a LDW game since 08, and by typing this post, and talking to the friend, I'm using up bandwidth, and wasting money.)))))

And Gnomey, the forum won't go back to hugs and kisses and cuteness, I don't think.

I'm saying sorry in advance in case I offend any person in this post.

Warning! This WILL be long!



Britney, forgive me, But I think your wrong. The Gnome was right. If we all stop right now and work together to make this a happier place, It can be back to us all being loving friends again.

Also, The Forum isn't just Who Am I, if you seriously look people post something new everyday! Also, this thread is also the cause of a couple of members leaving our dear forums permanently and temporarily. And Insulting LDW won't help at all and will only make things worse. Also, the Admins are working on the rules and some of you requested they change them. They are, but still, sadly, this fight rages on.

I know none of us will NEVER forget what happened here, but let's work together and not against each other and work towards making this forum a happier place. Maybe instead of fighting, we all could give suggestions for the revisions on the SB rules. Maybe we all could Calmly ask the Mods and Admins questions about what You've had done wrong or offer help. And by All I don't mean the whole LDW community typing the same the same question. For Example....

Member: Could you please tell me what rule or conduct I had broken The other day in the SB?

Mod or Admin: I'd be happy to answer that. You gave another member a spoiler. Please, next could you tell the member where and what He/ she needs to look up in the search function next time?

Member: I'd be happy to oblige! Thank you!

See? If we all acted a little kinder and more polite we all would smiling anytime when we log on or off LDW forums ( unless you woke up on the wrong side of the bed or somebody put cranky pills in your last meal! ) We all are a part of a ginormous family and I think there's no family that didn't ever have a fight. And they always made up. And maybe in the near or far future, Our big family will have a nice and dangerously funny ( ) reunion! And maybe all the long lost members will come back to us, even if it's only for a short period of time. We all need to say sorry and take down the fence that separates us all from paradise here at LDW forums. We need to pour a bucket of water over this Fire fight. We need to turn over a new leaf. We need to... Well, You get the point. Soon, The SB will be back and we'll have a second chance, So let's not ruin it.

Just wait and see, if we work together this Forum will be a fun, happy place.
Sometimes things just don't work out and a fight like this happens that could have been avoided.Next time when and if a problem like this arises maybe we can fix it in a more peaceful and friendlier place. I hope that you all took this post into careful consideration and this problem is solved a less hurtful way.

This was a miscommunication that I, and some other members, can be fixed quickly. I know this REALLY sounded like a sermon, But I promise I'll be back to mischievous little self as soon as this problem is solved . But you seriously should have expected this from, considering that long post I made about this problem. Thank you for reading this and I hope I helped and did not offend any one out there that has read this.

I mean no offense either.

Once something happens, its hard to go back to the way it was, although it may still get better. People only recently began posting every day in topics instead of who am I. A member(s) has been told change would happen two months ago, it still hasn't. It's hard to ask calmly when you get the run around repeadetly. Apparently one of the mods has called a member a liar. He has taken a break now to think this through, which I think will help the forums. The mods and admins are to busy to allow dangerously funny moments. I have doubts that the long lost members will come back, simply because they were gone before this took place. Sometimes, fighting fire with fire lets the other side see that your ideas, or "fire" is something they never thought of. I'll say sorry when I see change happinging, the only change I've seen in the past month or two is the posts per day dropping very rapidly. The niceties should be provided by the people who start the problem. I don't know how all the pm's went, but I believe gamey was polite in his post. CC, I'm not sure this will be ending any time soon.

Im not done posting until I see some change,
Luke.

I wasn't trying to insult LDW. I don't think any of us were trying to be insulting in the first place. WE'RE just stating opinion. And I'm sorry but I'm with Brit on this. All we get for answers is round abouts. I don't know what more I can say. I truly don't. The only thing I can say is this:

I don't think LDW forums will ever go back to they were again. There will be wounds that never heal. For new members prehaps it can happen again. But for those who have been scarred...never the same

I may be on break, but I will still check the forums now and then. I'm breaking my self imposed silence to say only this one thing.

Despite what you've read here, I NEVER called Spinny, or anyone else a liar. She totally misconstrued a correction I attempted to politely make in the SB when I caught her in what I perceived to be role playing.

I only vaguely recall the whole incident. I don't recall my exact words, but I believe (knowing how I usually handle such things) that it was a generic reminder that role playing is not allowed.

I recall that she attempted to openly challenge that, and I attempted to move it to a PM in which she claims I made a rather off color remark.

Those of you who know me, also know that I became a minister before most of you were born. My point is that I simply can't conceive of a circumstance where I would make the kind of remark she claims I made to her.

To those who feel these forums will never go back to being the "Happyville" of the past, I challenge you to reflect inwardly, as I will be doing during my hiatus.

The ONLY thing stopping this from being a gentle, loving place where all feel wanted, is OUR attitude towards each other.

Differences can be set aside, disagreements resolved, and hurt feelings soothed. It takes only a sincere desire on the part of everyone involved to make it happen.

I have, and am willing to continue to apologize to anyone I may have offended. I assure you such offense was unintentional.

When I suggested that if they site isn't making people happy they look elsewhere, I wasn't attempting to tell them they aren't welcome here, rather that they decide if this is really a site they want to visit.

Nor, was I attempting to shush Gamey, or suggest people don't have a right to suggest change. I think Barbara (who for all practical intents is "the boss" here) welcomes your suggestions.

But, please keep in mind that just because the admins want to hear your ideas, DOESN'T mean they will always agree, or accept those suggestions. If the answer is no, then you need to accept it and move on. NOT try to force change.

There are right ways and wrong ways to bring about change. I personally feel this public bickering is the wrong way. I believe it is doing far more harm than good. I really wish those who persist in keeping the argument alive would take their own time to stop and think about their ulterior motive.

Is it really to bring about change? Or is it simply to try and tear down something you no longer like? If the first, then carry on. If not, then please end this now.

Hi Everyone,

I'm sad that the shoutbox is causing people to bicker. Oh well. It's gone now. I really don't have time to manage a consistent and fair chat board, as has been pointed out. Barbara doesn't either, as she is essential in the creation of our new games, in addition to her contributions here.

I liked the shoutbox...to me it was a neat toy that made me happy. The forums' purpose is to enable communication between LDW game fans, as well as between fans and the development team. We were doing this successfully before the shoutbox, and I guess we'll just have to go back to that for the time being. Maybe when posting on forums (as opposed to the SB), people are a little slower and think a little more, and its easier for people to avoid stepping on each others toes? I do not know.

Bottom line is it is getting heated, and angry people are fighting with each other, and that has little to do with what I love, which is making games! Yay! Virtual Villagers 5 ("New Believers") is close to beta (which makes us extra, extra busy)...it's such an interesting and different VV that I'm almost exploding with excitement. We meant to get new preview shots up by now, but Carla has a bad cold so we're late with that. :P

Get ready for some really bold new games, as well as games now on Android phones (Fish Tycoon just launched!), and faster and better launches on iPhone and iPad.

THIS, to me, is what it is all about.

Arthur