Once again, the females do not like/want to work while carrying a baby, and women also seem to earn less and progress in their job slower than men.

Why? it just doesn't seem fair that in a game that this real life inequality persisits.

Women do not earn less than men. Mine have been promoted and completely dominated the man's earnings.

I have had a women give birth to 2 kids and is still further along in her career than the guy, who just seems to want to sit around and play video games.

I think you are going off a bit here. In one of my families, my female earns almost twice what the male does, simply because she's got a higher paying job. In the other family, the pay is the same, because the jobs are very similar. As far as the baby goes...umm...would you want to work when you are carrying around a baby for 2 years? Come on, lighten up. It's a GAME!

the women can still collect and sell collectibles while they are carrying around a baby.

LOL Gamey, I have had the same thing happen. The girl is much further along than the guy. He loves to play games too, but his favorite thing seems to be weighing himself & admiring himself!

Actually, the nursing moms will do any and all of the housework, including repairs. They don't progress on their careers, true, but my women seem to have more work ethic when they are not nursing and have passed their spouses in promotions. I thought that LDW did an excellent job of portraying the way it is with a lot of women who choose to have children.

And, before you say real life inequality, remember that many women choose to stay home with kids, and many others who would in a heartbeat if it were at all possible financially. And with still others, they would prefer to work, but would pay more for childcare than they could possibly make. In real life, it is a very complicated situation and kudos to LDW for trying to find a balance in a game that many cannot make in real life.

Kudos to you, knksmiles, for saying that so well! *claps*

narcissism at its worst... or best???...

Nice reply

I was talking about careers mainly. But yes the women do do housework (more often than men do it - if men do it at all without prompting from me, and it is unpaid work at that).

But I had two marry who worked at the same job - the woman was paid less (even though she was the one that I adopted first and rejected three other proposals before she married him)- even though they did not have a child yet, the man was promoted faster - overnight while I was away, he got promoted to level Three (two levels) while she was still in the early stage of level two. I have praised her while working the same as I have praised him.

To those who commented about the women earning more than men - I will mention again - it was not equal pay for equal employment. Even in the jobs where they women were earning more, the men still get promoted faster, the women do a larger majority of (unpaid) housework.

That's odd, Mage, because my first family gets the SAME pay...AND...the guy does MOST of the housework because my female is a workaholic. I'm sorry, but I do not agree with you.

I definitely can't agree with Magestaff either. How many game slots are your using? Maybe you should start another game to see you if get the inequity.

I haven't found what you're talking about in any of my slots.

The "little people" do not all work the same way even if they do have the exact same job. They take more naps when their energy is low, they eat (snack) more when they're hungry....etc.,etc. There is a randomness in this game and all the VV games too that you simply cannot break down into a cut and dried concept of equality.

Since the promotion happened while you were away it's impossible for you to know how much work was done and who did it.

And honestly.......do you really think that someone that would take such care to give us such an incredibly loving game as this one is (from the emails to the pets to the waves from our wee ones) would ever, ever have a male character make more than a female character for the same work?

Sorry....I have much more faith in Arthur to believe that. Personally, I would much rather have them with random quirks that truly seem to make them more human than a blah pixel character.

Um...I have alot of faith in Carla that she wouldn't let him

Joking aside, you make a good point

In my game, Felella is a little further behind in progress on her career, but that's because she's taken care of two kids for two years each (one she's still caring for)! Plus, she and Zest are both at Apprentice level. Zest gets higher pay, but that's because his job is simply higher paying. And just a moment ago I saw Zest dusting the furniture - with no prompt from me.

I just don't see the inequality of which you speak. (And trust me, if I did, I'd have issue with it)

Three slots so far, and the inequality seemed for me to be present before any of the couples had children - so they can't use the mom with children excuse.

Maybe it is just that the peeps (men and women both) have differing priorities, but I sort of wish that the women were a bit more work oriented.

I have one slot going in which there are currently no children. My female has made it to level 3 and does housework frequently. I rarely have to praise her at all. My male, on the other hand, sits around watching TV or reading newspapers and magazines constantly, rarely does the housework and is still at the beginning of level 2. I praise him and give him candy or fruit whenever I see him working, but honestly he seems to fail his cycle more than the female. In another slot, the situation is reversed. I really don't think that the issue is gender based, but rather individually based. It seems you may just have been unlucky that the lazy gene hit your female rather than your male.

Age seems to play a role too; I had the feeling the older ones earn a bit more than the youngers ones do.

Two of the women are older by anywhere from 2 year to 5 years, so it must just be the lazy gene in my women as mentioned. I am trying to praise them for working, but praise too much they get aggravated that you are nagging them.

People used to say this about all media: “It’s a just a movie, lighten up! It’s just a commercial, lighten up!” It’s only recently that people have begun to take the media seriously and recognize the strong effects it has on our socialization. The media is more powerful than you may think!

Precisely, if that is all the women can do while caring for a child, then the women are taking on the majority of unpaid labour. This is not equality.

Keyword here being “choose”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman, or a man, choosing to stay home and care for children. Where I object, is the sexist thinking that boxes in men and women. Men are trained through various forms of socialization (including the media and games) that they must grow up, marry a woman, and support the household. Women are trained to grow up, marry a man, raise children and take on the majority of the unpaid labour.

Where this game goes wrong is that it boxes in the women. The women are not portrayed as choosing to halt their careers and stay home with children for 2 years. Daycare and men staying home are not options. Why is it the women who have to care for the children? Why can’t the men? I’m just asking questions here.

That being said, I’m not trying to attack the creators of the game here. We all live in a patriarchal society and I’m not going to put the responsibility of erradicating sexism on the creators of the game. However, I do believe it’s important that we are critical of the media.

You have to take them to their workplace and train them to work then praise them when they do. After that they'll do it on their own.

It would be nice though, if Mom could lay the baby in a crib to work on her career now and then.

Okay. I'm going to attempt to address this just for my own self, and I apologize if I don't do this well. I'm not that good at this sort of thing.

While you might very well be correct regarding the affect the media has on our society, I also know that the media has a horrid reputation for blowing things waaaaay out of proportion. That being said....I really don't see Arthur and Carla as making this game to be something that influences us. I'm a 31 year old woman, and I realize that games are for enjoyment purposes. There's no subliminal messages here. Pardon me if this offends anyone, but if perceived inequality and/or media influences in this game bothers anyone that much, perhaps they shouldn't be playing this game. Having said my piece I will now go back to being quiet. I mean to offend no one with this reply, and apologize if I did.

~Xay

I think that would be a great idea for future games and in two of my families the women earn more, i have no complains !

Who said that the Mom carrying the baby isn't making any money??!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that the women get paid whether they are "working on [their] career" or not (I've checked my "$" button for details). Meaning that both the men and women are paid a daily income, even if they never work a single cycle in the whole game. (See this thread for more information on how peeps get paid.)

Those men and women who are set to "work on career" are working on advancements in their career. And are paid accordingly, on top of their daily income when they work a cycle.

Let's keep in mind that this game isn't about who makes more money (everyone's salary is agreed upon when we adopt or marry), or who works harder (that's what the gloves are for).

This IS, however, a game about family. There is nothing wrong with a stay-at-home/work-at-home mother/wife (or father/husband)! There isn't anything wrong with letting one of the two peeps get all of the advancements, while the other doesn't advance at all. Whatever combination works for you. It's your game. Make it fun!

I do wonder why the guy can't haul the kid around just as well. I would like them to at least be able to divide it fairly, like, with one child she has to lug it around, then with the next one he can do it.

Or just have the option to have them switch the baby from the one to the other.

I have two games where the woman works a lot harder than the man and gets promoted more often. They don't get promoted automatically either, they get a promotion when they fill their progress bar by working. I also have a man who is always dusting the furniture and cleaning the nightstand, and he even takes the trash out without being asked I think the inequality you see is a random combination of traits in your families.
Also remember that a lot of kids are playing these games. How would they react if they made their little family make a baby and all of a sudden daddy has one in his arms? Might raise some questions ^^
I do agree it would be nice if the father could take over for a bit and help in taking care of the baby, but I suspect the mechanics for that are a lot more complicated than it sounds.

Wish I could get the "father" to take over the baby for awhile so "mom" can work on her career. Then I found that after baby, and a few "work units" she was almost equal.

BTW... my "Mom" earns more than "Dad" ...and after two days she of "giving birth" so to speak, they are both at same level in promotions

But the women do not make the "extra" money and career advancement (which equals more money in the long and short run) because they don't feel like working. Again, this is not equal - the men do not take a turn carrying the baby around. There are fathers that choose to stay home instead of the mothers, to care for children. It would be nice if the men had to take the baby half the time that the child must be nursed - because that is what baby bottles and breast-milk pumps are used for. Again - it seems a bit unequal that the females have to take the time the first two years to raise the child, while the men do not. I would have thought, after the requests from all the other VV games they would have thought to have the child care duties split between both parents, that they would have made that update in this game. Since there is only one family, and only one set of parents in each game slot to keep track of, I would have thought it would be easier to code this is. Just something that says, when the child is 1 it goes from the mother charrying it around to having the father carry it around would be nice.

I would think that men might be upset that they are being left out of the baby's first 2 years of life. Certainly they can change diapers, wash the baby, feed the baby and carry it around as well as a woman can.



How do you react to seeing a man carrying a baby around? I would say it is a good role model for children to see the men taking an active interest in the children when they are young.

But really in this game are the women even doing that? To me it seems more goofy than anything, seriously, watch her take the trash out or read the paper, it's like the bundle of baby isn't even there.

That's no offense to the designers, I personally love how things are so goofy about it, like the over romanticized 'trying to make a baby' if anything should strike anyone as sexist, it should be that right there. Again, not saying I think it is, like I said, I love the goofyness, it's like old episodes of I Love Lucy and things of that nature.

We are mostly adults here (don't know the ratio, so I'm guessing) and we know the difference between make believe and real life, and the children that do play it, I'm sure they'll see things the way I see them, as goofy little quirks to an awesome game. And if they don't, or their parents don't and feel it inappropriate, well then they are adults and they know how to make the decision for their child.

Let me preface this by saying I have no strong feelings one way or another on this subject, though admittedly I do enjoy the discourse to a degree.

As far as the game goes...posters are correct in saying that the mothers do still earn money in banking and they can still sell collectibles. One way to off set the career advancements is when a career item becomes available in the store, buy it for her. Also, after she has stopped nursing the baby and can get back to her career, I encourage that and let the father do repairs, unload groceries, clean smudges, pick up socks and other non-career chores. This seems to keep them acceptably close in career advancements.

Also, check the happiness meter...while carrying the baby my VF mother has stayed elated. So...she is happy. We talk about social reflections in the game as though they are negative. The family is happy...I am confused that career and monetary gain seems to be so prioritized by some players. And some say that if the mother is not achieving this it is somehow wrong. Why?

She may not be earning as much but she is happy and enjoying a happy home and family. I am concerned that so much emphasis is being made on career, and happiness does not seem to be a factor.

While it is important to give impressive thought about social relections and gender equality in career advancement...I think that a mother temporarily setting aside career advancement so that she can nurture and nurse her baby for a couple of years should not be made into a bad thing.

That being said, as usual, remember it's a game and there are choices about having children.

And, for whatever it's worth, I love the idea of the Dad's holding and nurturing the children too...but more for the enrichment for the child and parent...not to benefit monetary career achievements.

Yes, I have seen the activity be "changing baby's diaper" (or similar wording) for her activity.

All I am bringing up is how over the other three VV games this was one area that seemed to get attention and a request that the parenting duties in the first two years of the baby's life when it has to be carried around be split between the the parents/genders so that the females were not all hit with the responsibility for early child care. I'm saying this was a request that has been ignored.

Gender equality in work and earning potential and career advancement is a hot button topic with many people. It has been a topic of request that this be addressed in the games - when they ask what we would like to see, one of the suggestions is something to help the women still be able to advance when carrying a child for that two year infancy. That request has been ignored. If it can't be divided between men and women equally with a single child, it sould be nice if there was at least a 50-50 chance of the father having to carry the child around for two years instead of defaulting to the mother automatically.



The father is elated as well. I am saying that in this day and age, both parents are taking responsibility for child rearing in the early infancy. When the designers asked for suggestions for the games, it was listed as a request for this after seeing the effect it had in the first game.

Why this matters to some players? You may have never had to face gender discrimination, if so, I am happy for you. But I not only grew up during the 70's watching women fight to be able to do some jobs. Watched while people called women who wanted to excell in a career all kinds of nasty names. Was denied jobs because I was a woman in my own life at least twice because I was a woman.

Again I am saying that the developers have ignored a request that was made as far back as VV2 to split the child care duties between parents so both could achieve equally.

Its a steryotype that is being perpetuated. That women take care of the infant children, and the men do not. That the woman has to give up career advancement while the men do not.

Yes, it is a game, but as this is an issue that was brought to the designers attention many years ago, it would have been nice if they included it into the game design for once.

Excellent clarification For whatever reason it has been requested and a random chance is a reasonable solution.

Bethlham - I think you said it better than any of us could have. I don't have a strong opinion either way either, but I do feel this has been blown out of proportion somewhere along the way and you have come along as the water and boiled it back down to the point. So thanks for that.

I agree. Seeing how I would believe this game appeals mostly to women I don't see why this request would be ignored. I am a female and the bread winner in my household and I have several other girlfriends that are as well. Bethlhams random change solution is completely reasonable.

My woman, since I've only got one so far, is two levels above her husband and has been ever since they got married. She doesn't work when she's nursing, but she does housework and fixes things, and maybe it's just in my game or I'm just noticing it more than I should, but it seems like when the woman is nursing, my guy works more often.

It is just a game.That is all it is.We dont play games the same as we live real life.There isa big difference between games and real life.I play games to have fun.I dont think about real life when i play games.I played the free trial and when i buy it,i dont care who carries the baby.I loved carrying my babies after i gave birth to them,in real life.

The makers didn't ignore anyone's request!!
I have read through nearly every single one of the suggestion posts for VV (with God and LDW as my witness), and you would not believe how much Arthur has worked to meet the many requests that were made. And every single thing you ask for takes a lot of coding. Some things are harder to implement than others.

Money and careers do not make a family. A family is made when people care about each other. In fact, in most of real life, money and careers can cause conflict between people.

As for the woman's ability to advance a mother's career, there are options. As it was even said here, you can buy the magazine for her career. She can help the family gain money by gathering the collectibles. You can have dad stop working during that time and help around the house, so that both can work on advancing their careers at the same time. There are plenty of options.

Wow, what a discussion. Different pays for the same job could have simply been different levels at the same time; I have a pair who have the same job and make the same money.

I don't think we can come to such a huge conclusion about things so soon after the release because there are so many personalities and makeups of our little people that the variables in gameplay are much more than we can possibly represent in such a short time.

Keep in mind also that the woman's desire for children and her likes and dislikes will impact her career and mom duties regardless of how much we interact. This is clearly evident in one of my families!

I have a woman whose 'Wants Children' field says "Maybe" and the man's field says "Definitely." They had 1 child and even though I have tried 'over the years' to have more, the mom seems more interested in advancing her career and is a Level 4 in her field. She far dominates the man in his career and the times I've tried to get them to have more children, it alternates between arguing about it and just nothing happening. This mom clearly has no issues with gender equality, she is far ahead of the game.

There are probably people who didn't think the man/woman equality thing was a necessary change to begin with and I, as a woman who has a successful career, am one of the ones who thought it was silly to make it such a big deal in a game. Having said that, I hope anyone reading this realizes there is no offense implied and no comments are directed at anyone in particular; we're all just different people and have to accept that things are different in a virtual game just as they are in the real world.

Gender equality might be a hot topic for some, but it isn't for all, and a game or it's forum is not the place for the subject to get too big; it's a game and it's about fun, we're here to have fun! There are forums for people who want to debate the subject, and there are real life organizations for active participation; that's where it belongs, IMO.

There is absolutely no way LDW could create a game that takes all of life's issues into consideration and market it as casual gameplay and if that aspect of LDWs games is gone, so is my interest in LDW. We are all different people from different walks of life, different cultures and countries, with different priorities. I say KUDOS to LDW for such real life actions in the game and ask that everyone remember that there is no way everyone will be happy all of the time.

That is by far more realistic than a perfectly balanced game where everything is hunky dory.

Remember, I come in peace.

Personally, I didnt really notice it , well, if someone had asked me "who carried around the baby" I wouldve said the woman, but other than that it didn't cross my mind. I personally don't think it makes too much of a difference, but after reading this I get what you mean, and I guess it would be nice to share the parenting duties with the father but I don't think its vital, and may not be worth the coding.

Also did anyone think that maybe its to stop you getting the mother constantly pregnant to try and get as many kids as possible? Maybe it's some kind of detterant or something.. I don't know, but in other games there's been things like that.

Also, about the requests for it in VV, i know its a bit off topic, but I'd have one father to multiple children (different mothers) especially when my tribe was low on people. I'm not sure if it would work in VV for that reason, but maybe, I don't know.. just a thought

Anyways, in conclusion, I don't think it's worth the hassle, no offence, if I've caused any, but I'm sure if the whole career thing is that much of a problem to you you can find some way around it.

I'm not a feminist and believe it's good for the mom to stay with the kids when they're small. Why should it be different in the game? If you don't want babies you don't have to have them. It's that simple! I stayed with my kids when they were little. It's really a choice. It would be nice if the women could get some advancement for childrearing and good homemaking, but as others have said...it's just a game. If you don't want kids simply don't have them. You can also wait to see if the game will give you an adoptable child if you want. One showed up on my characters doorstep. They already had five kids but adopted her anyway.

I love the kids..Love hearing their giggles and sqeals of delight. I would make more if the game allowed.

Just an update...

My Vmother and Vfather are at the same career status, they have one child, but the Vfather does make $9 higher in salary. He is a rocket scientist and she is a baker...and I had him for awhile before accepting a marriage proposal. So...??? It doesn't sound like things are too bad for her

I did want to say that HP's advise of having the male stop working while the female is nursing is a good idea if it's an issue...but I think it'll all work out just fine.

Also, again, I have to agree with HP about the designers listening to requests. Really, VF is one big example of this with the previous discourse on marriages, family trees, taking notes, selective childbearing. I guess I am beginning to wonder...if they haven't changed it thusfar...there may be a reason why? Maybe?

I think it's a good thing for the whole family if the father continues to work while Mom carries the baby. The more he advances the better off the family is, and family is what the is about isn't it? It's not really a game about 'career advancement' as much as it is about 'family success'. My women don't seem to have a hard time catching up after the baby is walking, so it's not an issue with me.

I think that it's fair, since the father has to do work while the mother is taking care of the baby. Both jobs are of equal importance; the father works tirelessly at his job to feed the family and upgrade the house while the mother works tirelessly to make sure the new baby is okay.

It is just a game and i don't see why you can't have the father share in the responsibilities while the mother has the same available time to advance her career. I am also a programmer so I can appreciate how difficult it may be to add all requests. I am happy to see that the mother can do other tasks while nursing now. I think this is a huge improvement.

I downloaded the trial of Virtual Families (because I played all three Virtual Villagers and liked them) and now I have a family with twins and Mom is carrying them around and cleaning house and doing laundry and food, but won't work. And Dad isn't having anything to do with the children, and doesn't seem to dust (but will do laundry if pushed). What I didn't like about VV 1-3 is that the kids seems to have only one parent. Why can't Dad carry around one of the twins? Or change the diapers? Or play take a turn showing the babies the toys? Why can't the biological father also be a parent? And if Mom can do all the housework and browse the web, why can't she do her job? (Mine is a graphic designer.) This is not 1950, so why does the parenting have to be so unequal?

And why is Mom the only one who seems to be able to work on a recipe or prepare a meal and Dad only looks for snacks. If I put the woman in the kitchen near the row of cookbooks, she'll study a recipe or prepare a meal. If I put the man there, he will look for snacks. Is it too much to ask for gender equity?

Also, in VV you get to play slow, regular or fast, but not here. Surely we should be able to play fast instead of hanging out and waiting for stuff to happen.

So far this game a disappointing. I hope it gets better. There just isn't enough stuff happening and I want Dad to be able to do his share.

I find that the families are so different and random. I have a family with six kids, the kids do all the cooking and cleaning, while my parents are still novices and watch tv all day. Lol, seems perfect.
Another of my families the mom does everything, and another family everything is almost perfectly equal.
Like I said sooo random.

It's a game. I don't get what the big deal is.

I completely agree. It's only a game.

In all my 5 families,the fathers do all the housework.I can hardly get them to work.

I have to disagree with this. Maggie, my first adoptee, had some VF form of post-natal depression. The compulsory two years of carrying the baby (to date, she gave birth thrice) makes her 'a little blue' or 'depressed' all the time.
Maggie would end up sleeping the day away while her poor husband, Caleb, singlehandedly did the housework, interacting with the other children while trying to raise his career progress.

Of course it differs from family to family. But I don't find any gender inequality except for the carrying the baby for two years idea. That is ridiculous.

I know that I am not bothered by the fact that the mothers carry the baby(ies) around for the first two years and can do everything except their careers. My moms all seem to "catch" back up very quickly and easily. So far, all of my moms have been elated the majority of the time while carrying the babies, even the ones that claim No way to kids, but having one that's depressed isn't unthinkable.

But when people claim that the mothers are the only ones that read the recipes or do the cooking, well that's just plain not true in my games at all. I have an equal number of dads who do that as I do moms and in fact, I have less trouble trying to get a dad to make a meal than I do most of the moms.

One dad of mine even has a Like of Cooking and something else, which I can't remember right at the moment, but he actually often goes and makes a meal without me even telling him to.

I don't know, I just think this whole gender equality issue is, for me at least, a moot point. I like the game the way it is and find tremendous improvement over what the moms could do in the VV games.

I have a mom on my game who has 6 children, is 50 yrs old and has mastered her career while her husband who is also 50, is still on level 5

I guess it depends on the family (as it does in real life!!). I had one family where I couldn't get the guy to work. All he wanted to do was vacuum and dust, while his wife was always working on her career.

Magesteff, try creating a few more families and see what happens. A blanket statement like you made raises the hackles on most of us!

I'm finally getting back to this thread. YOU can make the peep more work oriented. Each of us can mold a peep to what we would prefer. The artificial intelligence only goes so far; it is up to us what we prefer in our games. At least, this game allows us to mold our little friends.

To tell the truth, I still haven't had the inequity you mentioned. I have had females who had 6 children and still pass their hubbies to master a career faster.

The male peeps have done laundry, sewn buttons, dusted, prepared meals, called the children to brush their teeth or go to bed; all of which are domestic functions, without any prompting from me.

If you want a career oriented female, just praise her when she "works on career"; red slap her when she does laundry or any other domestic job.

Don't disagree...it's true for me

Really though, if your's are blue or depressed try to continue to praise them for behaviors that you like while they are carrying the baby, even if it's showering or washing their hands or watering the flowers. Feed them a treat occassionally. That seems to help me.

As far as inequity, I have had mom's that have had up to 6 kids and still surpass the dads at their careers but recently I started a new stradegy. I go ahead and buy all the house repair kits when they are available and set them in their places. Then when time comes for babies, I let the husband work on the career and let the mom prepare meals, do dishes and put out fires, sell collectibles and complete house repairs. Then after the baby same thing but switch so mom works on the career while dad does the other stuff for a bit.

But, I do praise them until they are elated and just keep them that way.

I try to as well. Maggie's actually all right other than post-natal depression. (just went through round 4 this morning) no matter what i do, she just remains depressed or blue.
I do find that her happiness level tends to take longer to rise and fast to decrease. I actually let her do anything she wants (within reason of course, waking up at night to brush her hair is nonsense).

Maybe fourth time's the charm because she's much better after the first year of carrying baby Jerry. The second year was much more rewarding. She actually did LOADS of housework. She even competed with her husband, Caleb, for laundry duty (I swear, this family, including their teens, love laundry duty).

I haven't played enough to comment on any possible gender inequality. But I do think it's funny that the only thing the new mothers won't do is work on career---but putting out fires, fixing leaky sinks (with water spraying all over baby--or babies in the case of my triplets), etc.--no problem!

I need to brainwash the next generation to like laundry. My little people are slobs, and I thought it was the children but since they all moved out it hasn't gotten any better. The parents even leave socks in the kids' room.

Teehee. I hope the 2nd gen would be equally tidy. This family is extremely hygienic and tidy, that's for sure. Showering, washing hair, cleaning oven/fridge or just carrying out the garbage - they do it all! =D