I hereby retract my statement.."I'm glad it's gone".. panic and shock can bring out the worst in me sometimes. I will truly be happy when the shout box comes back as long as we try to be more caring of other people's feelings. I've only used it maybe three times and mostly enjoyed reading the on-going discussions. Here's a toast to the forthcoming "New and Improved Shout Box". Cheers.

I'm going to do something that I rarely do here, so bear with me, because it's rather long-winded. I want to explain what we had hoped the Shout Box would be for our community, exactly why the Shout Box was removed, and what I'm working on in order to bring it back.

First, since there appear to still be some misconceptions about LDW as a company, I want to explain (for those who aren't that familiar with LDW) that we are a very tiny independent game studio, despite the appearance of our Web presence. Arthur, Carla and I do almost everything associated with the day-to-day work of making and supporting the games and keeping LDW running. We all work very hard, but we cannot (even with the gracious assistance of Gamey and Rockmower) watch everything that goes on here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, year after year.

We have a commitment to ourselves and our community to keep this a family-friendly site, and (unfortunately) it takes almost constant vigilance to accomplish that in today's world. When you add to that the diversity of our community - people from all countries, cultures, and life experiences - we have a huge challenge to try to maintain a fun, friendly forum that's also safe and enjoyable for people of all ages.

We had hoped that the Shout Box would be a place where members of our LDW community could do more than just talk about our games. We wanted the SB to be a place where people could get to know each other and us better (we think of everyone here as part of our LDW family). It would be nice to think of the SB as a little family room, where people could pull up a chair and their favorite beverage (mine's coffee) and talk about life and LDW games. It should be a place where newbies are welcomed into the family and everyone feels comfortable joining in the conversation. I've watched and joined in the conversations over the nearly two years since the new forum software was installed and the SB made its debut. I've grown to know and respect many of you very much.

Unfortunately, although that's how it started out, it didn't stay that way. I've watched as people who used to freely chat in the SB gradually grew quiet and withdrew altogether. At this point, I want to be careful, since I know that the SB is very popular with the younger members of the forum who love to play and be silly. That's what it is to be a kid. I was a kid once (still am, in many ways), and I have 3 young grandsons. I can be goofy and silly with the best of them. However, there's a time and place for everything, and I don't think the SB is the right place for that.

Over the last year or so, the SB has been taken over by the kind of banter that monopolizes the space and shuts others out. People who tried to ask a question or carry on a conversation were "drowned out" by such things as rustyrolls, RP games, boingy-boingy, biting and tackling each other, and various other things that would be rule violations if I were to mention them here. I have received many complaints about the SB, along with copies of the SB contents that point out the problems.

On an entirely personal note, many times I have felt a sense of betrayal as I've seen people I care about watching to see if I was logged on and making comments in the SB that it's OK to do "bad" stuff, as long as LadyCFII isn't on. I don't have to be visible to be watching. I am usually logged on to the forums from around 5:30am until after 9pm, whether you see me watching or not. I always have them open, even while I'm doing my other work. Even on weekends (I have a very understanding family).

Now, exactly why the SB was removed. As with most things, the actual removal was the result of a long process of decline in the nature of the SB activity, culminating with a "last straw" on a Sunday. I don't consider the following a breach of confidence, since the people involved in these conversations posted them publicly for everyone to see (and copy, if they want to). The following two little snippets demonstrate the kinds of things that caused the SB shutdown. The participants in these conversations were adults and children. I have removed all names in order to avoid (as best I can) embarrassing anyone, but the snippets are otherwise exactly as posted. Please know that I'm not picking on these particular people, since there have been many, many others who have engaged in similar stuff. These are just the two incidents that are closely associated with the SB shutdowns. The first snippet is from last April, when the SB was shut down for about 30 minutes. The second one is from Sunday.

From April 18th:

[x] AHHHHH!!!!! GET OFF OF ME!!!
[x] My friend (that dose not have an account on this site) said something really funny about the message!
[x] If you would like to know she said, "that was the most boring thing i have EVER heard! AND I LIKED IT!!!"
[x] (YUM! YUM! YUM!Oooh! Tiny toys! Picks up <removed> and <removed> and plays with them!)
[x] PUT ME DOWN RIGHT NOW!!!
[x] (OOOOH! TOY Talking! ME <removed>! WHO YOU?
[x] *Bites <removed>'s hand*
[x] *YOU?)
[x] (Doesn't feel anything!)
[x] I'M <removed> AND YOU PUT ME DOWN!
[x] I'M NOT A TOY!!! THATS IT YOU HIT THE SWITCH <removed>!!! HYAAAAAA!!!!! FEEL MY FURY!!! *takles <removed> as hard as possible*
[x] (Still feels nothing! Continues playing!)
[x] FEEL! MY! FURY! HYAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!<wbr>!!
[x] *morphs into a giant larger than <removed>* ooh, pretty toy! *picks <removed> up and throws him around*
[x] (Listens a bit and says NO WAY YOU NO DESTROY ME PLAY! ME LIKE PLAY WITH TOY!)
[x] (Grows larger!)
[x] *Grows larger*
[x] AHHH!!!!!! <removed> STOP I'M STILL TINY!!!
[x] THATS IT!! *grows as large as <removed>
[x] Look! trampoline! *points to <removed>* Tallyho!! *Jumps over <removed>, and falling over him*
[x] WAIT FOR ME!!! *Joins <removed> on the "trampoline"*
[x]
[x] SB's gone
[x] ????? ?????
[x] open a new tab and visit the forums again
[x] PM
[x] okay
[x] your right!
[x] [LadyCFII]
[x] THE SB IS GONE!!!

From Sunday:

[x] i want to bake my pie and burning my house down will make it cook faster
[x] *Facepalm*
[x] Bad Idear there.
[x] soda is my water. -w-
[x] Oh you poor Soul.
[x] lol!!!!! haha
[x] heyy guess wut!!
[x] hmmm burnt pie..
[x] How am I a poor soul for that? I just drin more soda then I do water on on hourly basis. XD
[x] * drink
[x] What?
[x] I still think you're a poor Soul. :\
[x] I just went to a forest and burned that -says as he lights pineneedles that will burn the entire forest-
[x] i might get pink highlights!!!
[x] Congrats.
[x] *screams at the top of his lungs ... YERP*
[x] -.- I is nots a poor soul. *eats cake L gave me* It IS good cake! XD
[x] ???
[x] I'd want Blue... or Green... or Purple. or Gold... or Red..
[x] NEOP, NP. NEEOOOP.
[x] <removed> check the message i gave you I was successful too!
[x] MOG!!!! NEEEOOPPP
[x] What message??
[x] Neop, Yerp Yerp Neop!!!
[x] I sent you a personal message
[x] neop neop neop! yerp neop neop yerp! yerp yerp neop!
[x] Yerrrpp!! Neop Yerp!!
[x] I don't see the flashy envelope of doom so I guess I didn't get the message.
[x] Neeop yerp? Yerp yerp neop yerp!
[x] Yerp?!


This kind of stuff creates a lot more work for LDW, and every time we have to deal with the aftermath of a problem, it takes us away from making the very games that are the reason for the existence of the forums. I can't tell you how many hours I've spent working on this latest issue instead of the new game that you all are clamoring for. Kind of ironic, actually.

So, where do we go from here? Well, ultimately that's up to everyone here. The SB doesn't have a built-in, automatic monitor that detects the kinds of things that I have just described. It's up to everyone here to help determine whether it stays or goes permanently into the annals of forum history. I'm working on a set of guidelines for the Shout Box, as well as a little box that will sit on top of the Shout Box that will contain a link to those guidelines. That (along with this marathon explanation from me) will help everyone understand what we would like the Shout Box to be.

I welcome comments and discussion, as well as comments on whether Jazzo's kind offer of a free non-LDW shout box should be continued indefinitely. It seems a perfect place for all-out goofiness, while allowing more rational discussions to take place in the forum SB. Thoughts?

I'd like it comes back like that and I hope it will! Let's try again...

Anyway, I understand and agree with you, Barbara.
I'm just sad and tired to see how it's easy to spoil the nice things! But let's continue to keep it nice!

Since this discussion has been opened for ideas, I would like to revisit a suggestion I made when I first became a moderator for this site. I had asked if it were possible to have 2 different shout boxes on the LDW site. There could be the regular SB on all forums except for one. Maybe in the Games or Off-topic forum there can be another SB for more playful conversation.

I do not agree with the content of the snippets shown. They are definitely inappropriate for a "E" rated site. Unfortunately, I have been consumed with finding work and have not been able to spend as much time on here as I would like to, but when you are in a state of panic over finances, that in itself can be all-consuming.

IF it were at all possible to run 2 different SB's on this one site, I do see it making the front end of the website cleaner. It would give a place for "CLEAN fun to happen away from the general public. As with most families who get together, you have the adults in one room, having mature conversations and you send "the kids" into the other room to be kids.

Now, as most people who know me can imaging, I would be in "the other room" as much if not more than I would be in the "living room". I like to horse around. I will admit that there was a time where I lead people down the RP road. It was fun and we all had a blast. I still get comments from time-to-time about the fun we had in a particular "game" we used to play. Even though I was never formally reprimanded, I finally stopped playing as I saw it taking over the SB and it soon took the sidelines. It would be nice if we did have a place here to let loose a little and forget about work or school or chores or in my case, right now, finances.

Now, for a bit more technical talk. I think that if there is not a button or command provided by the UBB software, a second SB could be accomplished. It may take rewriting the PHP script from the server itself and setting it up manually in the SQL database. There are also other chat programs out there that could be embedded into the forum if it is just not possible. As I am not an administrator but only a moderator, I do not know the ins and outs of the Software. The last time I saw the UBB software on a technical level, it was 4 years ago.

I do miss the SB. I know some do not care that it is gone. Some seem, judging by the comments, are even glad it is gone. I think that with the SB gone, the forum lost its personality. To me, the forum now is just another stagnant message board. I have visited this thread a few times since it was started and have written comments about this current chain of events, but never committed to them for one reason or another.

I would also like to express my thoughts on Jazzo's SB. It's a great idea and very ingenious of him to set something up like that. I give him high marks for that. I think that it is a great temporary fix for forumer to still communicate but I do not see it being a permanent one. The functionality in conjunction with the forum was a bit cumbersome. It didn't really flow like it does if it is in the forum itself. Even if we had a second SB in the Games section, it would be in the forum, we could play the games, even though I have only made 2 of them, and still be here, on the forum, keeping up with the shouts in there. And Jazzo, if you read this, I am not critisizing you in the least. I applaud your attempt. You are a proactive thinker. You say "Hmmm... it's broke, how can I fix it" instead of "Oh, it's broke, I think I will wait for someone to come along and fix it and meanwhile I think I'll just complain about it".

Oh, let me back up a bit here too. If there was a second shout box, it too would have to be governed by LDW policies. I am not suggesting a free-for-all, anything goes, type of SB. I am just suggesting it be a "playroom", separate from the "living room". Just one room in this mighty LDW house.

Wow, this is a difficult position the SB is in. It is very difficult to write a program or monitoring system for courtesy or rambunciousness. I think as a community we should all try to help each other not only with game questions but with community standards. Try not to interupt or shout over others, rough-housing can break something, take turns, share, sneaking when authority isn't looking isn't a great idea, are all examples we should follow as best we can.

I think teaching 'house rules' is a good idea. Maybe if there was a box that could be checked assuring rules had been read would help. I know this is common with many terms and aggreements. Maybe this could apply to the forum and SB.

Maybe a thread giving anonymous notice of complaints or violations could help.

I know I have experianced talking-over due to the timing of the SB posts appearing, though I don't think this was the case in the examples given.

I think the link to the rules close to the SB is a good idea but maybe a little sign reminding we are E-rated and to mind manners at the top would be good and obvious.

Maybe Gamey could be hired to monitor full-time, this would help on a couple of levels (btw, hang in there Gamey...it will get better)

I am excited for the outcome!

Oh, and Jazzo's non-LDW SB is a great idea. That was an awesome effort! But, no critism here, it is a little harder to manuver than the LDW SB. That is no fault of Jazzo's! He did the best he could with what he had to work with and I admire the initiative. Snaps to Jazzo!

This is an admirable thought, but it wouldn't solve the problem. I think Gamey and I both spend as much time here as we can, but even dull old men like us have some semblance of a life outside the forum. I really don't think he's willing to stay on here 24x7. Even he has to eat; sleep; and take a shower on occasion.

I like the idea of a second sb where things like rp's would be allowed (maybe even encouraged). I too must admit my transgressions and confess that I've participated in some of those which were quite fun. Still, I don't think that's the answer either.

I join in saluting Jazzo for his efforts. It was a very proactive temporary solution. However, like others, I looked at it, and decided it doesn't "flow" like the sb in here does.

The answer to the problem, lies in our ability to be mature (kind of hard for some people) and to make a conscientious effort to stay within the rules. Rule violations have been an ongoing problem that affects more than the sb. It has caused us to lose other areas temporarily as well. Examples are the Off Topics, and Fan Fiction sections.

It also caused us to permanently lose things like role play games and the SPCV. I share the frustration of many here. It does seem that the forum has become more restricted and less fun than when I joined. Still, I can directly attribute the added restrictions to what seems to have become my main rhetoric of late: PEOPLE DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES!

The rules don't ask anyone to be "perfect." We are all human and will make mistakes. That's not the problem. The problem is when we get carried away and forget to be courteous and thoughtful of others.

In closing, I'll paraphrase a statement I made in tips for posting fan fiction: If you would be embarrassed for your Mother; Preacher; Teacher or a Six year old child to read what you're saying, then it doesn't belong anywhere on these forums. This especially applies to the SB.

Yay for me

LOL

Thanks. I never expected it to be nearly as functional as the LDW SB. For the simple reason that it's external. And thank you guys for your kind compliments I really appreciate it.

WILL IT EVER COME BACK?

If you read this entire thread, you'll know what the plans are.

Here's just a couple snippets that stand out


I was also thinking about the SB, and forum in general. What about a little box like the leaderboards, etc. that reads "Welcome to the forums" or something like that, that has a link to a general overview of rules/standards. There could be another link that details the rules and standards.

So the box would link to generalities: Be nice, use search functions for questions, don't use or discuss cheats, use the SB like your mom priest teacher child moderator developer or law enforcement official is watching, E-rated, things like that. Then for details, in case they don't know what constitutes a cheat or E-rating or crime (like arson), they can link to a detailed list...like the ones that already exist

Just throwing out ideas