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Who else is excited for Virtual Villagers 6?
by Hydra14
02/28/24 08:22 PM
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#140684 - 05/08/08 07:46 PM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: emri]
renaweir Offline
Adviser

Registered: 05/13/07
Posts: 93
Loc: California
I love the game just the way it is also. I like the black hair, red hair, blond hair, reddish brown, golden brown, hardly no hair villagers.

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#140794 - 05/08/08 11:09 PM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: renaweir]
Carla Administrator Offline
Executive Producer

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 784
Loc: Italy
We have addressed this issue many many times. One additional problem in having more diversity would be in the babies. If you breed two villagers that have different skin color, how should the babies look? The game use separate grids for the heads and for the bodies. So we should always be careful not to mix bodies and heads that have different colors. It gets extremely complicated and hard to implement.
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Carla
Executive Producer
Last Day of Work

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#140795 - 05/08/08 11:10 PM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: renaweir]
Cipher Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 128
it is nice the way it is and i no its hard to make different races and stuff, but itd b better with more diversity
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"Box falls out of sky, man falls out of box, man eats fish custard." -The Eleventh Doctor

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#140804 - 05/08/08 11:25 PM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: Carla]
MochaJew Offline
Fan Fiction Enthusiast

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 2016
Loc: Anywhere but here
Originally Posted By: Carla
We have addressed this issue many many times. One additional problem in having more diversity would be in the babies. If you breed two villagers that have different skin color, how should the babies look? The game use separate grids for the heads and for the bodies. So we should always be careful not to mix bodies and heads that have different colors. It gets extremely complicated and hard to implement.


Hi Carla;
First, I am sorry, but this was the first time I heard of the tech problems that would arise. I didn't realize that there would be major difficulties. I haven't found the answer through the Search Funtion and I was just alittle curious. I also realize this question would have best been served under under "Tech issuse." My mistake.
And being a Moch Lady married to a French Vanilla Gentleman, we get the "I wonder what your babies will look like all of the time."
Answer? Beautiful.
I have to confess; after reading yours, LadyC' and Jazzo's reponses to my question, I am now thinking about enrolling in a coure on computer gaming.



Edited by MochaJew (05/09/08 02:00 AM)
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Life is hard. So put on your big girl panties and deal with it.

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#140818 - 05/08/08 11:45 PM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: MochaJew]
Carla Administrator Offline
Executive Producer

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 784
Loc: Italy
Of course!!! \:\)

In order to make a wide variety of villagers any "head" can be attached to any "body". This means the color hue of the head has has to be the same color of the body to make it realistic or it would be awkward.

We could have separate grids for a different skin color where the heads would attach to the bodies of this grid.

What if I want, then, to breed a villager from the first grid to a villager from the second grid... from which grid would the child be taken from?
_________________________
Carla
Executive Producer
Last Day of Work

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#140839 - 05/09/08 12:03 AM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: Carla]
MochaJew Offline
Fan Fiction Enthusiast

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 2016
Loc: Anywhere but here
Carla; firt, thank you for taking your time and being patient with my questions. I guess it is because I work with colour all of the time, I didn't think, or realize that there is more to it in the computer world.
But I think I understand what your saying; you would end up with a pick head on a brown body or vice versa. Or maybe green people? I find this so intersting and now makes me want to back to school and learn how the "magic works

_________________________
Life is hard. So put on your big girl panties and deal with it.

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#140941 - 05/09/08 03:26 AM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: MochaJew]
VVFanatic Offline
Guru

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Texas
Wow I did not no about any of this Either thanks for telling us Lady & Carla it would be cool to have other skin tones but I understand that it is not easy & as Mocha said if its not broke dont fix it \:\)
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VF2 -80%

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#140946 - 05/09/08 03:37 AM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: MochaJew]
Faeron Offline
Trainee

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 41
Loc: Huntsville,AL via BERMUDA
I must admit that I thought it would be easier than Carla has explained (thanks)...it would be fun with more diverse ppl...but i'm all for easy programming and a faster release date (for future games)

Originally Posted By: Carla
Of course!!! \:\)

What if I want, then, to breed a villager from the first grid to a villager from the second grid... from which grid would the child be taken from?


that makes alot of sense




Originally Posted By: MochaJew

I have to confess; after reading yours, LadyC' and Jazzo's reponses to my question, I am now thinking about enrolling in a coure on computer gaming.[/b][/i][/color][/font]



and i agree with mocha on taking a course in computer gaming... or i might just "cheat" and ask a new student to explain it to me!
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Earth has its boundaries, but human stupidity is limitless – Gustave Flaubert

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#141107 - 05/09/08 04:06 PM Re: Just wondering why there isn't much diversity [Re: Faeron]
Complexity Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/19/08
Posts: 145
Originally Posted By: Faeron
...but i'm all for easy programming...

I expect you didn't mean this quite the way it's said, but to clarify, it's not a matter of it being easier to program, but that it would be a massive change to the game to include more diversity.

Every color/nationality/race/whatever would need to be drawn with its own grid. The code in the program will need to be sure it's keeping each head and body from the same grid.

Just adding ONE other race, such as black, would require a grid, added code to handle that second grid, calculations on how to determine which grid to start with (if you start with 7 villagers, will people get mad if the original 7 aren't a good mix of races?). And, as already pointed out, there is the issue of the babies. Not only do you have to try to figure out which child would result, but the babies themselves would need to be drawn to look more like the resulting child. Right now, there is ONE baby. Add in a black race, now you need two. If you add in a mixed race, now you have three. Plus, that mixed race will need another grid. And code to handle that grid (ensuring that when a white and black villager breed, they get either a white, black or mixed baby). And then would people be unhappy if the number of black, white or mixed babies they get aren't evenly distributed?

Now let's add in an Asian grid. Add another baby. Add another mixed race of white an asian. How about black and asian? What about mixed and asian? What about mixed with mixed?

Every combination would not only require its own grid, but it would require code to ensure each villager uses the right grid, determine the genetics, figure out mixed races, and then mixed races with mixed races... and in the end, people will still be unhappy because it won't/can't reflect true life.

And which races/cultures/nationalities do they add and which do they not add? What if they add black, white, hispanic, and asian, but not Indian (both kinds)? What about German? There are specific characteristics for them, as well (I'm part German). Or features commonly associated with Jewish people?

And then would that create racial/cultural/nationality stereotypes? You betcha. Do all Asian people have the stereotypical slanted eyes? Not really. Should all the black villagers have afro hair? I think not. But then how did the black villagers get the products to straighten their hair?

It's a huge tangle of worms, and the best solution all around is to simply not go there. Don't go there for the programming/coding aspects. And don't go there because once you cross that line, you cannot possibly create enough diversity to avoid stereotypes, many of which are not accurate and are actually quite offensive. It's Pandora's Box.

And on top of all that, you have to write the code for each version: PC, Mac, etc. which multiplies the work exponentially.

Quote:
and i agree with mocha on taking a course in computer gaming... or i might just "cheat" and ask a new student to explain it to me!

You don't need a course in computer gaming. You need a course in computer programming. It's not that you need to learn an actual programming language, but that you'd need to learn how code is written, flow charts, decision branches, loops, etc. It's the logic of the flowchart of the code that would need to be required. This is not unique to games, but is the basics of ALL software programs, including games.

For those who may indeed be interested in getting into programming, by all means pursue obtaining a Bachelor's degree in either Computer Science or Information Systems. Do keep in mind that a bunch of the old programming/analyst jobs are now overseas (from U.S. anyway) so the pay and demand is not as high as it used to be. However, if you are truly talented, there are jobs to be found.

I would suggest anyone with very high math skills, analytical thinking, an engineering aptitude who absolutely loves puzzles, go for it. It's actually FUN! All code is a puzzle as you have a goal to meet and need to figure out what commands in the coding language you can put together to create your goal. Then you test it. Work out the bugs. Test it again. Bang your head against the wall. Figure out the answer in your sleep (literally). And then celebrate your brilliance when you find success with something that just could not be done before. One of my favorite parts of programming was using commands in a manner they were never intended to create things that had escaped others. I used to give presentations on coding. I loved coding! There was never anything that couldn't be done. You just had to think outside the box.

Okay, enough of that. As you can see, I find programming quite enjoyable and would recommend it to others even though it's not for everyone. You'll know if you have a knack for it or not (being good in math: algebra, calculus, trig, etc.). If you loved working those problems, then you'll love programming, as well.

But when it comes to making what seems to be a small change, such as adding diversity, from a programming aspect, it's not a small change at all.

The one thing that I very much love about the way LDW packages their games is that you can make your own mods to the game. So if you do want a different colored skin, you can create it yourself. I've changed totems, faces, clothes, even parts of the main game board. That way I get to personalize it to whatever I personally like. I think encouraging mods would be a good idea since that would add variety to the game. If there were enough people interested in creating mods, a special area for downloading the mods could be made available. Since the mods are only png files, there's little chance of it blowing the game (although, I did create headless elders by accident once when I made a typo in a filename! LOL!). LDW would have to check with their lawyers to ensure that they safeguard themselves from responsibility of mods from other people. And they'd have to create a preview and download page for them, not to mention maintaining the page, but it could be done. But what we're doing in threads does this same function so where's the need?

Sorry for rattling. I get a bit carried away when thinking of programming and all. \:\)

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#141678 - 05/10/08 05:17 PM Re: Just wondering, why there isen't many diverse [Re: MochaJew]
Jazzo Offline
Master Magician

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 2137
Loc: jazzothegreat.com
Originally Posted By: MochaJew
Originally Posted By: Jazzo
I could do a mod to make like everyone african-american or something like that? When I get home, I'll get to it.


I would love that! Thank you Jazzo. Maybe I am asking too much, but could you make the tribe look like my hubby and I? The first baby will be named after you! Where do I send your chocolate chip cookies?


Well, I did my best and I'm not sure if this matches anyone's skin color but is definitely a bit different. It changes all of the villagers skin colors. Here's a pic of some villagers with this mod:


SIDE-EFFECTS OF THIS MOD:
Well, since I had to change the color, clothes and things might be a tad different.
Major ones:
Blondes are now Brunettes
Yellow parts of clothes are now brown.

But other than that, if you would like to download it, click here.

Enjoy.



Attachments
3961-Picture4.png



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