Why can't we all get along?

Back when VV1 was created, people took offense to the golden child being similar to Jesus Christ. I have to admit, I never made the connection until I saw it discussed. As far as I know, VV has since steered clear of any implicit religious references.

Now, I'm usually not someone who gets up in a bunch over religion (being agnostic myself), but I noticed a few things that quite frankly, shocked me a bit.

Okay, I get that the story is about heathens, which is a term I don't like, but I can get over that. Cue villagers 'explaining the truth' to the heathens. Whose truth? The heathens seem to do just fine, and the totems suggest that they have a deity of their own (who may or may not have charged the pain totem). But here are our villagers, explaining the heathens how wrong they have been.

Not only that, but the villagers destroy their property, and take over their land. Now, I know it's just a game, and I doubt that the refence to crusades is intentional, but I can't shake the feeling that I'm supposed to be a vengeful God.

Am I the only one? I feel sorry for the heathens because the whole point is to take over their village..

Maybe it would've been better to refer to a force of Nature (Mother Nature, or, Isola's magic Nature!). You know, focussing more on spirituality and balance in nature than a deity?

Having that said, I'm absolutely love the new concept! Well done LDW

The Heathens didn't seem to be doing all that fine to me - they didn't know how to fix the aqueduct, Master Healer couldn't heal herself, nor could trainee healers. The area where the Heathen mommy hangs out is a mess. Most of the Heathens don't seem to have any ambition, they just hang around. To me, the Villagers seem to be helping the Heathens. It's not like they chase the Heathens off, or imprison them. Once a Heathen is "converted", he/she begins to help out with improving the village, and becomes a member of the Villagers. Maybe the "conversion" they experience is from laziness or lack of know-how, to learning that you have to work to make things better for yourself and your family. And remember, it was the Heathens who captured and imprisoned the Villagers in the first place, but the Villagers were resourceful enough to free themselves, so they deserve to be able to fight back a little.

With all that said, I don't read too much into the "god totems" or the "explaining the truth", or "converting the Heathens". The designers had the right and the freedom to tell the story however they wanted. I just have fun with the game.

Thanks, LDW, for another fun, entertaining, "I'm never gonna get my laundry done", game!

Well, there's that. But they built all the buildings. Well, they use them, so it's more or less implied. For sure they built the totems, or at least, that is also implied. They even have a hierarchy, implied by the chief and the different "ranks" of masks. The fact that they appear to live a boonies life, does not reduce their right to live their life the way they want to.

As for the villagers being resourceful, I think they are related to McGyver

We're fenced in? Let's build a storage bin out of it! LOL

Yeah, as I read the game description, I got uncomfortable. Sure, it's just a game, but I wouldn't enjoy one that made fun of people who believed in a god or gods, or suggested they needed to be converted or changed, so I am sure not going to have fun with a game that seeks to convert so-called heathens. There are just too many real-life examples of that happening, and it has never gone well for those who were considered in need of conversion. The creative team surely has enough talent to come up with a better concept.

It does bother me a bit. I was a bit hesitant to buy when I read the description, but thought to myself, it's a game. A game, now that I've played it, I like.

I play and don't think of the real world, which I tend to do with a lot of games.

Everyone has their own opinion, and they have a right to that opinion. That is respected here, as long as all is in line with our Forum Rules. Arthur is very interested in everyone's viewpoint, but we do want it to be a discussion, and not an argument or flame war.

I'll also recommend reading this post.

The rest of this thread has been moved temporarily, and the parts that stayed within our rules/posting guidelines will be back. Until then, I'll just leave the thread locked to keep it from getting off track.

We really want discussion to focus on VV5, and its merits as a game. I will ask that people refrain from taking the discussion too much into the area of 'real world religion' since that inevitably leads to flame wars and/or personal criticism. The game is, after all, about the inhabitants of Isola and their history - not about Planet Earth and its various cultures. We will remove any comments that we believe stray over the line or invite others to do so.

Edit: the thread is now unlocked, but we will continue to monitor the discussion and intervene, if necessary.

There has always been a spiritual nature to these games, but I have to agree with Vampess. The first time my grandson wanted to play the game, he asked me, "Grannie, what's a heathen?" That broke my heart. I didn't know how to explain it to him, so I looked it up in the dictionary, but I couldn't read the definition. So, after playing Last Day of Work games with my grandsons since VV1 came out, for the first time, I said, "Let's play a different game." It would have been so easy to change the terminology in this game and prevent this religious aspect.

Heathens = Unfriendlies
God Powers = Guiding Hand Powers
Explaining the Truth = Being Friendly
Converting the Heathens = Bringing a new Villager into the Tribe

Words have power, and some words have no good connotations. Heathens is one of those words. I'm shocked at Last Day of Work that they decided to use this word. It seems to me that such a creative team could have come up with better language.

Ok so what would you rather call them? Evil villagers, canibals (not sure if I spelled that right) There are many worse things they could call them so I think that heathen is the best name that they could call them.

@Zippie: The term God Powers is standard gaming terminology, so I don't see a problem with it.

As for the religious aspect, I read on some other thread that some people wanted more temples and stuff like that. So maybe LDW was trying to satisfy that?

In any case, I agree they went a bit heavy handed on the religious aspect without intending to offend people. It doesn't bother me and I know there is a spiritual aspect to the games, but the way they did it in VV5 was kind of, I dunno, more religiously loaded than usual.

Cyborg, I guess you didn't read my entire comment.

"Heathens = Unfriendlies"

That would have been a more user-friendly term. No, I wouldn't want them called the terms that you suggested either. I have a right to be unhappy with the religious nature of this game. If they continue on this theme, I won't be buying any more VV games from LDW. That makes me sad.

Thanks for your input smjjames. I've played a lot of computer games, but never one where God showed up. So it was a shock to me. Especially since I have been playing LDW games for 5 years now.

Well, in the god game genre, the players themselves are the god that is using the powers. They aren't always labelled god powers, but it's the same concept.

Anyways, I agree they went in the wrong direction with the religious aspect. I'm not sure what their motivation was for VV5, but VV4 was religious in the sense that it was spiritual and cultural than closer to pure religion.

Since a lot of people are unhappy and angry with the religious theme LDW will probably steer away from it in the VV chapter (if there will even be one). But for now lets just forget about it. The religious theme was a bad idea I agree and I'm sure LDW is very sorry to have upset anyone with the game.

At least they tried to toe it carefully. However, I think the path they took for VV4 was in the right direction in the sense that it was spiritual rather than outright religious.

Really though,it's the whole deal with the heathens and the conversions that just rings christianity that people aren't liking.

If they want to keep the temple (I didn't think the hand statue was really a problem) with the devotion points and god powers, it's fine with me since that kind of resource building and powers is a staple of some strategy games, although I think the potions and alchemy from back in VV3 was better.

Edit: As for the Golden Child, it was more of a 'chosen one' thing than anything to do with Jesus, and from what I heard, the Golden Child was basically a spoiled brat who just happened to be the child emperor of the island. I don't really remember VV1 that much.

I am one of those people, who -- in the beginning -- was a bit miffed about the religious aspects. I truly wanted to like the game, and left it at that till I've completed the game - twice. My beef became the GOD power, NOT the name, NOR the hand statue. The fact that players are forced to keep the population at 100, with no other choices available, is, in my opinion, the biggest flaw in the game.

When will people stop discussing how much they hate VV5? LDW understands the religious theme was a bad idea we dont need to keep yelling in their faces how bad it is. I'm just saying I think we all made our point on how we think this religious theme was bad and we no longer need to talk about it.

Wow...I never thought this would be such a controversial topic, though I must agree it makes some sense.

Cyborg, please re-read the comments, word for word, and then tell me where, in any of them, do you read the word HATE? Players should be able to have a friendly discussion without some one chancing the whole dynamic of their discussion. I am sorry, but aren't you being rather presumptuous and more damaging that the discussion itself?

@Swedane: Hasn't the cap always been 100 or so?

While they could have called the god powers something else, spells, rituals, the fact that they are called god powers doesn't bother me since the same kind of thing is done in many games, even some which aren't in the god game genre. Age of Mythology (an Age of Empires spinoff) for example.

@Cyborg: I never said I hated it. It's just the whole overtness of it which bugs me a little. However, it's just a game, so I'm more like neutral on the whole thing.

I like the game and about religion no matter what every one has some sort of religion even virtual people in a game have it, and without it the game would be a bit boring. I like the concept it's good the way it's been made, keep it up.

Your right sweden I didn't see the word hate once in any post. But we have been discussing the religious theme for quite some time. I think LDW gets it we dont like the theme of VV5 yet we keep saying the theme is bad you shouldnt have made the game like that yadda yadda yadda. I love the games from LDW I dont want to make them think they have lost their touch in making games. All I want is for there to be peace between the players and the developers.

No, smjjames, of the five VV games --as far as I remember-- this is the first time where players MUST have a population of 100, in order to proceed. In all previous games it was left up to the individual players.
That is all I have been trying to say all along, but no-one seams to read it that way!! Each person seams to insist on putting a different slant on what I'm conveying.
I was NOT discussing GOOD versa BAD. I LIKE all the games and have bought them all and will continue to buy them. I am merely stating, AGAIN. The fact that players are forced to keep the population at 100, with no other choice available, is in my opinion, the biggest FLAW in the game. (Note I said flaw)
I sincerely hope that does it!

Where does the figure of 100 come from? I've effectively finished the game by converting all the heathens several times now with a population of around 90. Of course, when the heathens convert, the population will rise above the 90 limit for a while, but unless the older villagers are rejuvenated regularly the population will drop down to 90 or below again as they die. I say "effectively finished" because I've never yet completed a collection that would allow me a higher population cap.

no need to keep population at 90//95/100/105 after has got trophy of 100 population.

Um, I know that some people seem to be taking offence to VV5's heathen converting thiggy (No offence to them. If I've offended them in some way, I sincerely apologise) and that the definition for 'heathen' is uncivilised. But I asked my mum about the meaning of it and she said that it also meant 'non believer'. So I guess that's the meaning LDW used when they created the game. Anyway, what the villagers are doing in VV5 is just trying to get the heathens to discover that there's more to life then just chasing others away and not believing in anything. And that there is a person who will guide them correctly.

I'll go along with 90, it's not that much of a difference! Still to many villagers to keep track of; in my opinion. in all previous VV games, one could get away with as little or as many villagers as one cared to. Not so in this one.

I know that we never needed 100 villagers to complete the game until VV5, I meant that the population cap where you can't gain villagers through birth (won't stop events though) was 100 or something.

Having so many people running around the Village bothers me also. This is the first VV game where you MUST have a large population to complete the game. I've always liked the challenge of finishing the game with the least number of villagers possible. Once you've mastered the game, you find other ways to challenge yourself, but in this game, I can't do that. I'm back to playing VV1 now.

For some players solving all the puzzles signifies the completion of the game. For others it's solving ALL the puzzles and ALL the trophies. In VV5 you don't even have to complete all the trophies, only 50, which gives you even more flexibility.

Hey it seems we are disscusing how the game works and stopped talking about the theme. This is wonderful.

lately villagers and heathens have been in good terms (heathens traded some scrolls for food and 1 heathen brought lost baby back).

To be fair, I don't see what the whole issue is with VV5. I mean, we've all took on a God-like role and created and raised villagers right through 4 other VV games thus far, so it seemed kind of natural to me that things would go down this route sooner or later.

Perhaps there are things that could have been worded differently or just generally tidied up a little bit more - I can think of a whole heap of things I'd have liked to have seen made better. But that's not going to happen, so we've just got to make the best of VV5 as it is and wonder what VV6 will be about.

the red and yellow mask heathens do i every get the turned or do they stay like that help pleaz!

Sassy, the thread that will help you is located here.